Spoiler Hot Review - Spider-Man: Across The Spider-Verse (Ep. 149)

The Meanwhile crew swings into action to bring you our Spoiler Hot Review of Spider-man: Across The Spider-verse!

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SPEAKER_02 0:00

Coming up on this episode of meanwhile, Saba Ryan, and I swing it to action to bring you our spoiler hot review of Spider-Man across the Spider-Ver. Does the sequel surpass the original? We'll try to answer that question for you. There also, we want to talk about this the hype online that people are saying that this is the greatest animated film ever spun. Does it live up to the hype? And where does this installment fit into the Spider-Man lexicon of Spider-Man films? We will share our thoughts with you on that and so much more. We'll also be giving you our speculations and our thoughts and insights into what we expect in the tantalizing conclusion to Miles Morales' journey and the upcoming chapter beyond the Spider-Verse. Prepare for a wild ride through the Spider-Man multiverse. Packed with exhilarating twists and turns. We've got all this and so much more. Hit the music. I am with Saba Mir. She's back in the pod with us today. Hey Saba, how are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Doing well. Nice to be back, Frank.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Yeah, it's been a while, man. It's been a while since we've had you on an episode. And I thought, you know what? Across the Spider-Verse is probably a good episode to bring Saba back for because she'll have uh she'll have some sharp insights for us and uh she'll definitely bring her A game on this one. So uh no pressure, no pressure. You just have to carry this entire episode for the entire, the entire, I don't know, 90 minutes. So we may do 90. Who knows? We'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Yeah, no, for sure. Uh I no go ahead. I was gonna say, I was gonna say I have my little uh Spider-Man action figure on my desk um at this moment, and so I feel like I'm well suited. Nice, nice.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Yeah, I don't have any Spider-Man paraphernalia in my office or on my around my mic station or whatever the hell you want to call it. I do, however, have my Marvel hat, and there is some Spider-Man art on that, so uh I feel adequately prepared as well. Ryan Dietrich is also with us. Ryan, good to have you back, man. Uh, you were on our Guardians episode. You were on both parts of our Guardian episode. We lost uh Dave. Dave, right. Dave, how why am I forgetting his name? Dave, we lost Dave on the second part, but uh but yeah, good to have you back, buddy. How's it going?

SPEAKER_03 2:49

I'm alright. Uh just worked an eight-hour shift, so uh I'm gonna try to bring the energy. Spider-Man is my favorite hero, so I'm gonna do my best. I also don't have an action figure. I have my uh ultimate Spider-Man omnibus behind me. I could bring that up, but I I don't think it'll be too useful.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Okay, I thought you were gonna say something like you had your Spider-Man Underoos on or something like that. So no, I have my Spider-Man PS4, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

There you go. What is it like branded? Like not just the game, it's the it's the whole thing.

SPEAKER_03 3:17

Yeah, it's the limited edition. It's uh red with a white spider on it. It's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Cool, it's not bad. I've never got one of those limited edition machines ever. I just sort of like I don't know. I I I prefer the non-branded ones. I don't know why. I just do, but I don't know what you can do.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

But do you love Spider-Man as much as I do?

SPEAKER_02 3:35

I don't love Spider-Man as much as you do for sure. I do like Spider-Man. I did enjoy the Marvel game, I do enjoy most of the movies. Gotta be honest though, MCU Spider-Man's been a fairly big disappointment for me, but we can uh we can we can table that for another time. All right, across the Spider-Verse, the second installment in the Spider-Verse franchise from Sony Animation and Sony Entertainment, Pascal Pictures, Marvel Studios. Yeah, let's get into this, guys. I gotta tell you right off the bat, I loved this movie. It was fantastic, it was so good. I gotta be honest with you though, I didn't go in with the greatest of expectations because I felt that the family-friendly vibe was gonna kind of kill everything for me. And I didn't expect the story to be this complex. Honestly, I feel sorry for the kids that saw this movie. I don't think any of them figured it out at all. Like how how could they? Like all the little twists and turns, there was like three or four different reveals. There's a, you know, there's a turn in the, you know, there's a turn in the final act, not the obviously the uh the cliffhanger, but but the uh, you know, but the other turn. I'm just like, how are kids gonna keep up with this shit? It almost like it's almost like Lord and Miller went out of their way to try and find the perfect balance of what would be interesting and fun for the adults and what would be interesting for the kids, as far as like putting in all the visuals, all the Easter eggs, all the silly humor. Like they put in all that for the kids, and then they kept the adults interested with this, with this very complex and very well-written story. Like this story is very well written. It's probably the I would say it's the most well-written Spider-Man story on screen that we've ever gotten, in my estimation. That's my that's my takeaway. But yeah, let's um let's go around the table here. I want to get everybody's first general impressions, and I'll get a little bit deeper into my general impressions after you guys go. But Saba, you're the uh you're you've been the one that's been away for the mo for the longest. So you can start us off.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

For sure. I mean, going in, I did have like high expectations just because I loved the first one so much. And I was also apprehensive because you know, like the curse of the sequel sometimes when the first one does so well. True. How do you follow up? How do you create this story and have it still be meaningful? And we can get into this later, but I really like the themes from the first movie and how they're sort of addressed in the second movie. And I mean, the theater was there was like laugh, like laugh out loud laughter in the theater. Um, and and it was like in the right moments as well, and it fit the characters, and not only that, but yes, this like heartfelt story of Spider-Man. And I feel like no other superhero really relies on like the family or like the heart aspect is like Spider-Man does, like that feeling of Spider-Man. It's like the way that it was captured within Miles and the other characters. And yeah, it was like an emotional roller coaster. I cried in this movie too, but I also cry easily, so that might not be worth a lot in terms of like, oh my goodness. But no, like it was just the themes are so beautiful and so relatable in this like extraordinary world. And just shout out to like the animators, like that, like they really just bring their A-game, like they're doing things that I feel like have never been done before. Like 100%. I know we're gonna get into it, but like with like Hobie Brown and even the way that he was animated, like I had to look it up later because I was like, how the hell did they do this? And it's like the how complicated they're yeah, it's like it's insane. So I mean, yes, overall, and completely impressed. Cannot wait for the next one. That cliffhanger was so good. And I'm so happy that this wasn't spoiled or leaked. Like, I just love like it was such a great experience from start to end.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Yeah, I agree. You know, what you said about the family is interesting, but the one thing that you gotta sort of point out in that dynamic is that these characters are kids still. Yeah. Like Miles is 15. Gwen's what, 16? Like 15, 16, maybe 17. So yeah, they're still gonna be attached to their family. Their family is gonna be a big part of their lives, their family's gonna be a part of their story. But I but yeah, no, I like the way that it's done. And I thought that the family played an integral role. And I think they captured in perfect clarity what it's like to be at that age, especially going through school and all that kind of stuff. And that's something that's always been sort of, you know, within the Spider-Man mythos is you know, education and and schooling and and you know, having to deal with parents or having to deal with parental figures, not necessarily parents for Peter Parker, but having to deal with parental figures. So I think that they did a good job of sort of finding a balance with that. I was a little shocked, you know, speaking of the family stuff, I was a little taken back by the fact that Jeff Davis's name is now Jeff Morales. So that was interesting because he was Jeff Davis in the first one. No, he I get I don't think he was. No, his tag said Davis.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Oh, interesting. Because like in the comics, even I know he takes his wife's last name in the comics. Huh. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Yeah. That's that's that's definitely, you know, in in in contrast to traditional sort of relationship dynamics. I'm I'm not somebody who would take his wife's name. That's not that's definitely not what happened in my family, or but hey, you know, whatever floats your boat. You know, I still love the characters. But I think honestly, in the first one, his name was Jeff Davis. I'm not a hundred percent sure. Don't quote me on it, but I sort of remember it being Davis on the on the tag. Maybe the tag was the mistake, and maybe that was like maybe it's just sort of like something that was an oversight. I don't know. Ryan, general thoughts and feelings about the movie.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

Uh, I loved it. I don't think that's a big surprise considering I have a massive bias for Spider-Man. I do, however, uh don't let that cloud my judgment because there are some Spider-Man movies that I would never watch again in my life. Uh this one is one that I will watch again and again. Uh I already know that I'm just gonna be like looking through every frame to find the little Easter eggs or to see a new spider person, uh, stuff like that. If the first one is kind of an introduction to the greater spider web ethos, uh if we want to call it. The like it's an introduction to uh what makes a a spider person a spider person, right? It's not uh getting bit by the spider, it's you know, uh taking that leap, putting on the mask, etc. This one is a deconstruction of a spider-man from like a meta level. And I thought that that was a really cool take where instead of uh looking at uh the the same old uh gets bit by powers, et cetera, et cetera, we've moved past that and we're looking at, okay, what makes a spider-man a sp or a spider person a spider person? And a lot of the time it is tragedy, right? Those candid events. Right. So the deconstruction of of sort of uh the idea of a spider person, I thought was just an amazing idea. And they balanced it really well with the sort of um close if that's a big idea, they've also balanced it with lots of little moments with the family and stuff like that. So it's it's even though it's so expansive uh in terms of uh where this movie goes in the universe, it's also very small, right? Because it's it's again, it's still like in New York and it still revolves around these like select few characters.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Yeah, that's like a really good point. It's funny, right? I actually wrote down like in my notes like deconstruction of like the Spider-Man narrative because that's so true. Like it just took a story that we knew and we just accepted. Like even you see, like um uh Peter, Peter Parker, like Jake Johnson's Peter Parker say, like, you know, this is how we got here, like you have to lose Uncle Ben. And it's like, you know, we just it's like, oh, well, this is what you have to, this is what is what has to happen. I'm sorry, right? And like taking that and being like, well, no, why does this have to happen? And like, why does someone else have to tell me how my story's gonna go? Yeah, it's just such a yeah, such a great way to explore this character that's been done honestly to death, if we're being honest. Like we've had so many iterations of Spider-Man in the last 20 years. Um, so to really take this character and do something so new with it, yeah, I think that's just I I think they did a really good job there.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

With the bonus that it's like an F, it's like an F-tier villain. Oh, yeah. The spot is not a Spider-Man villain that anybody would be like, I want to see a spot movie where Spider-Man fights the spot, right? Like he's up there with Big Wheel, uh, and like even like uh Tombstone is a little bit higher than the spot. Um, but it works and it works really well within the context. So I'm glad, you know. I have a soft spot for the spot myself. Now now. Um so he he he's part of an episode in the 97 show. So uh that was a great episode.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

Cool. Well, we'll dive a little bit deeper in everything, but I just want to share a couple more general thoughts and feelings that were really sort of things that stood out for me. The animation work was just insane. It was meticulous, it was it was artful, it was there was so much thought and time put into every frame. I felt like every frame could be just hanging on my wall as as a painting. That's how that's how amazing and stunning it was. You know, three characters in particular, their animation style were was just shocking. Um, the vulture um and spider punk and um and uh the spot, uh, the final version of the spot was just bananas. And there was just single scenes that just blew my mind from from an animation perspective that were just shockingly, shockingly detailed and shockingly good. Like I was mesmerized the entire film. I was looking for things in different different frames that I was hoping to catch in new frames, and it was amazing. The half-tone dots and the half-tone lines that you get in the comic books were basically the foundation of all the animation in this entire thing. And to have that be a detail throughout the entire movie with certain characters was quite exciting. I really enjoyed that. So the story, like I said, I think I mentioned this, but I'll just mention it again. Uh, the story was fantastic, the just the uh the writing elements of it, the the the way it was uh constructed, the way that it uh, you know, it paid off on all the little things that it set up, all the setups got payoffs. I thought that was fantastic. And also the other thing I'll say for the story was is it was a multiverse story, but it was a very different multiverse story. Yeah, I definitely want to dig her, dig dig more into the canon stuff with you guys as we get into that and more into the multiverse element, but I'll broadly say that uh this used the multiverse concept or the multiverse idea in a way that never never has been used, and they did it beautifully. And I thought it made the story so much more interesting, and I didn't feel as like, oh my god, another goddamn multiverse story. I felt like this something did, you know, you know, it did something fresh. It didn't try and re-tread anything that it's already been sort of laid right. So, anyways, let's dig a little deeper. Let's talk about the animation first, because I think that's the that's the crown jewel of this entire project. I think the story and the animation are the crown jewels of this entire project. And I just again, I couldn't take my eyes off the fucking screen. It was just mind blowing. The first time I saw it in regular size screens, second time I saw it in IMAX, and the IMAX was just, oh my god, it was mind-blowing. I'm trying to find descriptors that I haven't already used, but the best one that I can use, and I probably will just keep repeating, is mind blowing. Like I I was just in shock at how well it was done, how well it was executed, and in my research, I learned that some of the scenes took four years to put together. So I'm not, you know, I'm not completely blown away that this was the level of quality we got. Um, you know, with the COVID with COVID sort of jumping into the middle of everybody's film slate two years ago, I'm sure that the animators got a lot more extra time to finish this film. There was a couple pushbacks, I remember, as far as the release date goes. So, you know, bravo to them for for for making the most of the time because every little element of that film is just is just so good. So good. I like you know, you look at every little detail, um, even down to the characters, even down to the textures. And, you know, um I know Saba did some research on on the design for Hobie Brown and for Spider-Punk. So I'll let her bring her up. I know the same thing too, but but Saba did did some research. So let's talk about, let's explore it that way. Um, yeah, animation guys.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Saba, go ahead. For sure. Yeah. Um, speaking on like just before we get to Hobie Brown, like you mentioned like the way that the characters are animated and then like the frames are second and how they draw. Like the one that I really appreciated because like she sort of bookended the movie was Gwen Stacy. Like you could see the colors, even then the background and the foreground changing with her. Watercolors. Yeah. Like, especially with her world and everything. And you know, we can get into details on the story, but when at the last conversation she has with her father, like you can see all of that coming out and how that's like captured when she goes to like Miles' world. Like it's insane. Like, just the little things to detail that they really cared about. Like, there's probably so many Easter eggs in this that like I mean, I was also like you trying to catch what I could, but like there's probably just so much that they put into this. And so it just shows you like the heart that they put into that because they didn't they didn't have to go this hard. But yes, with uh with Hobie, I think someone did like on Twitter end up asking, you know, like how this was done. And I think the lead animator for it, uh, their name is Chelsea Gordon Ratzlap, if I'm saying it right, said that they basically had his like whole character like drawn like different frames per second. So there was like the body, then was done on like I think three frames per second, or or there was also like an offset with the vest, and then the guitar was on a different sort of frame rate, and then even like the outline was which is like insane. Like that's insane. And the way he interacts with the characters are so cool. But I'm they're really doing some like mind-blowing things in terms of like farthering this technology. And I feel like even the last couple of years after the first Spider-Verse came out, um, we could see animators like taking from this in terms of just you know, um, seeing what else they could do. And then one other thing I do want to know is just for the Lego world. I really love the story behind this to the Lego Spider-Man. Yeah, the 14-year-old kid. Yeah, like how he did something on YouTube, the crew, like you know. Yeah, he did the trailer, yeah, and they loved it. And so they like reached out to him to do that whole little scene. I absolutely love things like that. Like that makes me so happy, especially for that little uh 14-year-old kid. Um, I think it's just he's one of our best guys. He really is. Preston. I think his name is Preston Mutanga, if I'm saying it correctly, but yeah, that's amazing. That's just uh yeah, it was pretty insane.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Yeah, and and and stop motion animation. Oh my god, that is one of the most labor-intensive things you can ever do in your life. I've been behind the scenes on some stop stop motion animation stuff, and it is it is insane. Like you're literally moving, you're moving pieces and you're moving characters at like inches, depending on how detailed you want it, how fluid you want it. And uh, I'm just I'm just blown away at this kid was able to achieve this at 14 years old. Just just amazing, amazing. So hats off to that kid for sure. Jesus Christ, like insane, insane, mind-blowing for sure. Yeah, with Hobie, um you know, yeah, the whole the whole separate frame rates for each of the different elements or different appendages or or you know, different factors of of of his design or uh yeah, the different elements of a design. Um that's that's fascinating. And he literally looked like a walking handbill from a punk show, like the entire movie. He was a walking handbill from a punk show. And I love that. I thought that was really fucking cool. And they got everything right in terms of like font choice, color choice, texturizing. They got everything right. Like it literally looked like something that you would find in a bathroom at CBGB, like back in the 70s. Like you'd almost peel the poster off the wall, and it would have it, you know, it would have elements of that design, that design language inside of it. And and and and I thought that was I thought that was amazing and so authentic and raw. Like I was really all about that. Ryan. I loved it.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

Yeah, no, the animation is great. Uh it's it builds upon what the first one did, but then like goes even crazier. Just looking on IMDB, they actually had a quote from the uh directors uh where they said that this movie was gonna be about the same size as the prequel, and it ended up being uh the largest crew of any animated movie ever. Wow. Uh so they had uh a lot of people working on this, and it shows like every as you said, every frame is like a painting, and some of them even like I I'm surprised they aren't paintings, right? Like the um, what was it? Uh the New York City that was also Mumbai. Oh, I forget what Mumbai Mumbatan. Mumbaten. Mumbatan. Yeah. So that one was gorgeous. The colors that they used was just amazing. Uh you already covered Gwen's world. That one also spectacular. Like the drums at the beginning, like when she's hitting it, the the watercolor is splashing at the same time. Uh Hobie, we could talk about Hobie for hours. He's an amazing uh character as well as amazingly animated. He looks like just different uh like he looks like a walking collage of just punk. Yeah. I don't know if that makes sense. Like he just like him moving and in like the way everything moves, you're like, damn, that guy's punk as hell, right? Like he just gives off that vibe through the animation. Yeah. And I think that that's such a really cool thing that they do is each important spider person, I'm gonna say, ha kind of gives off their own personality through their animation, through their world, uh, through how they talk. And I want to give a huge shout out to the the voice actors. I know that we're not we're talking about animation, but just want to say that as well. Uh but yeah, it's it's just it's phenomenal. Uh and and those Easter eggs, like I wanna I wanna just pick apart this movie and just see what I can find.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Yeah, no, the voice actors, yeah, Shamik Moore, Haley Steinfeld, Brian Brian Tyree Henry, um uh uh uh Daniel uh Kayua. Um Try to remember Oscar Isaac, Issa Ray. Oscar Isaacs, Andy Sandberg, Issa Ray. Oh, Jason Schwartzman.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Jason Schwartzman was awesome.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Jason Schwartzman as the spot. Yep. He was great. Um, and I definitely want to talk about the spot because it was an interesting choice, but I think that they stuck the landing with that character. I don't know if anybody else feels that way. I didn't feel like he was a throwaway, like he was sort of made out to be in the uh marketing. Yeah, I don't think he was a throwaway. You know, Ryan, you brought up the whole meta thing. I think they went meta with the villain too. Like they were sort of in a very Rick and Morty way, kind of um, you know, undermining themselves with the dialogue and with their, you know, with their, you know, the choice of what they were saying. Um, they were almost kind of undermining what this character would become. And I thought that was a fairly interesting choice. I know that it was to play up on the humor uh to make it a little bit more adult. Again, this is another element of the film that the kids will never capture. And I think that there was a lot of that, if I'm being honest. And one of the things that I walked away from that film was, Sabi, remember that animation um that that that animation domination episode we did? Um, yeah, I think so. Yeah. And we were and and and I tabled the idea that maybe comic book movies would be better if if they just went all animation just completely. I think that this movie makes a a pretty strong case for that because I don't know if you guys were paying attention to the to to the shot design or the camera angles, the virtual camera angles, but I don't think that you're gonna get anything like we saw like this in live action. I think it's almost impossible. Um, how closely the cameras follow the characters, especially during action sequences, I think it's almost impossible to do. And I think that this movie actually makes a very strong case for the fact that we might want to start thinking about doing more of comic book content in animation. That was one of my main takeaways. And as we're talking about animation, I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts on it before we move into uh the next topic.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

I yeah, I don't think a story like this could have ever been told in live action. There's just no way it would be too confusing, cumbersome. The way that they make the animation work and how they you are always following like a certain through line there. I feel like in person, I don't know. Yeah, I just don't think this type of story could probably be could be done, especially with like what Ryan and you were saying in terms of like how individualistic each character is, in terms of like their the way that they're animated and also even like their sound effects and how they all exist in the same sort of universe where they go to the same world and yet still exhibit a part that is very much them. I think that would be really hard to portray on a like a live action thing. I will say this for the kids stuff, if they're like really little kids, like maybe they don't get it. But I do having like nieces and nephews that are like some, like I have nieces that are like six and younger, younger, and then like eight and older, like the eight, nine, ten, eleven year old, like they pick up like a lot more than like you think sometimes. Like my nephew was very, I find like emotionally intelligent in terms of like the like he watched all of Star Wars and we were talking about Darth Vader and all this. And that's a side note, but yeah, I find that some can really just pick it up, you know, in terms of like they might not understand the full details, but they understand how it like makes them feel, I guess, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Sure, but I'm right, but I'm not like I'm not talking about the emotional context of the film. I'm talking about the actual informational context of the film where, for instance, like the subtle meta humor that I was talking about with the spot, right? That's not something. Listen, I know I know 35-year-old people that wouldn't be able to pick up on that. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, like it's just it's either you, you know, it's either you have the lens to spot it or you don't. And I just don't think that a lot of kids had the lens to spot that. And I'm just saying that, that, that in terms of comparison to the first movie to this, I felt like this one was way more mature, way more complex in its structure, and way more complex in the characterization, and probably almost across the board and all aspects of the film, it was a little bit more mature. Would you guys would you guys agree with that assessment?

SPEAKER_03 26:07

I can give you a direct quote from a kid in my theater. Would you would you like to know a child's review of this movie? I don't have kids, so here we go. Um that the kid in front of me, right, when Spot kicked his own butt close to the beginning of the movie, yeah, said, and I quote, out loud, shouted it, Oh come on, man. So that's what kids that's what kids think about this movie. Uh is is that uh if you want to know what some adults think about this movie, you can ask the guy sleeping four rows back uh and snoring very loudly, which we heard during the quiet scenes. Uh so I got two very different reviews. But overall no, I I I think this movie um has a lot for kids to enjoy. And it has a lot for uh I'm not taking that away. I know you're not. Yeah. Um it has it's one of those movies that even though it is made quote unquote with children in mind, right, as the target audience. It's a family-friendly movie, yeah. It it it just has a uh the widest appeal um uh of a movie, right? Like it's uh anybody can watch this movie, just like anybody can can be Spider-Man. Uh which is the lesson from the first one. Right. This movie has something for anyone. Like, even if you're not a spider person fan, it I I want to say Spider-Man because that's like the main one, but it's it's like so much bigger than that, so I can't even if you're not a huge fan of uh the spider person mythos uh or the greater spider people uh universe. What did they call it? Spider Society. Uh oh. Yeah, I think that's what it's called. There are there are just great character moments, great like this is this I will uh say this for both the first one and this one. It is so much more than a superhero comic book animated movie. Uh-huh. It is all those things, but it is greater than the sum of its parts. Yeah, yeah, I yeah, I completely agree. And I don't think you can say that for every other Spider-Man movie. I think this is these two are the ones that you can say it uh the most about. Uh and I think that it's it's honestly they're just works of of of art.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

Yeah, I completely agree. And when I'm pointing out the the the maturity or the uh the other side of the spectrum, I'm trying to sort of throw kudos to Lorda Miller for finding that perfect balance, right? Because I felt that into the Spider-Verse was just a little too sort of juvenile for me, a little bit. Um, you know, into the Spider-Verse is definitely not not even in my top, not even in my top four Spider-Man films or top five Spider-Man films. Like this and Spider-Man 2 from Raimi are neck and neck right now because of what they accomplished with the script and what they accomplished with the tone of this film. And I don't know if it just had to do with Miguel O'Hara or not, but but you know, there's there's there's a certain element in this movie that isn't in the you know, that isn't in the rest of them. Um, but yeah, okay, so we covered the animation. What did and did you guys have any thoughts about the the humor in this one? Because for me, I wasn't a fan. I gotta be honest with you. Uh the kicked his own butt thing, I thought that was really stupid. I didn't laugh at that. I thought that was kind of dumb.

SPEAKER_03 29:24

Were you the kid that was in front of me?

SPEAKER_02 29:25

Yes, you the one that said, Oh, come on, man. I was in disguise. I was in disguise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

I don't know. It might like my theater was like laughing its butt off, and so was I. Like, this is the type of humor where I feel like it really worked for me. Um, it was really funny. And if it's the character, because Spider-Man can't help but be witty and like like quippy in like really bad situations. I agree. And you're like, you don't always need to do a quip, but it becomes a joke of itself where it's like there are scenes, like they're all sort of making like jokes about the spot all in the same time, and everyone's like doing these jokes, and you're just and like with even like with Spider-Cat, like people like I kind of lost it too. Like, I don't usually laugh out loud at Marvel movies, um, even though they do like to inject a lot of jokes in there. But this was a movie where like it was really just up my alley in terms of the jokes, and my theater definitely thought that too. It might be like a generational thing, I don't know, um, in terms of like the humor as well.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Uh I just think I have a different sense of humor about things, you know. I'm I'm I'm more like, you know, the way that I sort of try and characterize this is like there's people that like friends, and then there's people that like it's always sunny in Philadelphia. Yeah, but I like both. Like I like both shows. Okay. Well, I hate Friends. Oh, but I love it's always sunny in Philadelphia. To me, Friends is the worst show on ever been put on television. That that's that's that's my stance on Friends. And and it's because of my sense of humor. Like I just I just don't get like I'm just not into that sort of goofy kind of shit. It just doesn't that's not funny to me. Um, maybe because I grew up with, you know, I already had my years with that stuff, and you know, maybe my sense of humor has matured over the years, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

I don't like the word matured because it's making it sound like people who like found that funny or didn't find it is mature. Like people can have totally different sense of humors, a hundred percent. But as someone who has watched like Sunny um in Philadelphia, uh it's almost sunny in Philadelphia, their humor is not always like mature. It's funny too, but like it's you know, it it's just it's not everyone's like cup of tea, maybe this type of humor or the one that was in Spider-Verse, but I personally did find it funny. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Well, I didn't say mature, I said mature duh. So I was just saying, like, I think that's a lot more innocuous. I'm d like I'm just basically saying that as I've gotten older, my sense of humor has changed more or less. Um, it's it's it's developed into something a little bit different. But yeah, like like I'm just saying, you know, from my personal experience, I didn't find the humor all that funny. The one joke I laughed out loud that I just couldn't hold in was the whole e prey love thing when when Spider-Man India was was given the spot a hard time about coming coming to Manbatten. To find himself. Yeah, to find himself. He's like, Don't eat don't don't eat prey love me, bro. I was like, oh my god, I fucking lost it. I thought that was hilarious. And there's some other moments that are funny. I just it's it's it's just not really just not really my sense of humor. And it wasn't even really Marvel's sense of humor. It wasn't really even a comic book movie's sense of humor, except for the quippy stuff. Um, there's just some goofy jokes. Like for them to rehash the the meme, the meme joke, that killed me. I was like, no, please don't not again. I just like, god damn it, like how many times are you guys gonna go back to this well? Like it's dried up, like stop. You know, you're beat you're beating a fucking dead horse here. So personally, I just wasn't a fan of the humor, but I'll let you guys talk about how wonderful you thought the humor was. You're doing I I haven't even mentioned what I thought about the humor. No, I know that's what I'm asking you. I like like like I'm trying to get your thoughts and impressions.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

Yeah, I like the humor. Um Yeah, I mean, it it was one of those they because the humor is so focused on like Spider-Man a lot of the time and like sight gags with uh different types of Spider-Man. Yep, and because I love that and because I can recognize that, I liked like 90% of the jokes because of that. The other 10% of the jokes I liked because I felt that they were written in it great for the characters. Like uh Jeff Morales has a lot of great moments that I just honestly Ryan Tyree Henry did a great job just bringing that character to life. Yep, absolutely. And uh uh Luna Lauren Valez, I think, uh for real Morales, same thing. Uh they both did an amazing job. Like you could believe that these were like a real couple that were uh you know shocking actors can act. But you know, like it's it goes uh so much further when it's an animated movie. I feel like there's this uh I don't know how to describe it. There's there's this sort of like barrier, right? Because these aren't real people, uh it's not live action, right? Right. Um, but at the same time, it's it it is more welcoming, like uh it almost disarms you because the it isn't live action, it it's cartoony, which can sometimes uh be considered childish. So I found that just the humor rooted in like family dynamics really hit for me, and the humor rooted in uh Spider-Man uh mythos did it for me. The one that I hate, and I'm gonna go off a little bit, but this is purely because I'm a spider, I'm a spider freak. Um Ben Riley, the uh Scarlet Spider, I did not like this adaptation.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Okay, yeah, I'm with you there. I'll let you go on. That's the one that I was like, okay, whatever about.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

Because yes, I get the joke, oh 90 is so radical, everything has to have pockets, everything has to be like defined muscles or whatever, everything has to be like angsty, right? But like Rob Lightfeld, he was still he was still a spider person, right? Like he still it's he he wasn't just anyway, but yeah, also that one that suit design is one of my favorites. Um, just like it because it I don't know, it just feels so different and yet same from from like the classic spider uh suit. Uh I don't know. I just have a soft spot for the Scarlet Spider design. I like that suit.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

I like the Scarlet Spider. I like Ben Riley.

SPEAKER_03 35:19

I don't have any issues with those characters at all. No shots to Andy Sandberg. Um, it's obviously not, you know, he doesn't he doesn't write the character or or choose which direction the character goes. That's just my my thing is that the Ben Riley adaptation in this wasn't my favorite.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

I think they were poking fun at at Ben Riley's majority fan base. Right. And and they were poking fun at the fact that you know he he's the one Spider-Man that looks like Rob Lightfeld has been drawing him his entire life. Yeah, the defined muscles. Yeah, like insane, like you know, rippling like everywhere kind of drawing.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

He he he definitely suffers from tiny foot syndrome that the 90s had. If you look at a lot of 90s heroes, um, like Deadpool specifically, uh, the 90s, the way they drew them in the 90s, they had really tiny feet for some reason. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

I'm gonna take note of that. I'm gonna look up.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

I I think it's because it made like yeah, yeah, it's more like slimming, like a reverse triangle, right? It's supposed to make them like broader, but for whatever reason, the just like that the way that is, is it makes them have really small feet. Uh and it it it causes the 90s era Spider-Man and Deadpool to have that small foot problem.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Yeah, no, that makes sense. That makes sense. I'll say on on my end, I what you about the family dynamics and the comedy there, like I really felt that too, because I felt like I can't fully relate, but I do relate to some things in terms of like experiences I've had with my mom and dad. And you know, I get what you mean, where there's like sometimes with like animated parents, there's like just a removal because like yes, they're not real, but you could really feel also like the affection and the love. Like when when like his dad is like texting him, like, hey, this is important, like you need to be here, and he's like, in a minute, or even when like they find out he has like a B in Spanish and they're trying to like I've been scolded at a family party where they're like quiet, whispering, yelling at me, but like everyone can see I'm in trouble, which was also just funny to me because it's like, oh yes, I rem I remember like things like that. And then there was just like some of the other stuff. The stuff in Mumbad, the thing that I did like was when he talked about his perfectly quaffed hair and all he uses is coconut oil. Someone who uses coconut oil in her hair because that is just what we do. Um, and then when he specifically the chai tea thing, because people brought up a lot, but the non-bred thing is actually my boyfriend said non-bred once. And I was like, you cannot come into my family's home and say that. Like that's just not something that can be said. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:48

Um it's also a callback to earlier in the movie when Miles says, uh, why do people always say ATM machine? Oh, yeah. So it's like a it's like a spider person thing that they always correct when people say uh misnomers, and then just very Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Yeah, they have to kind of have the last word in it.

SPEAKER_03 38:03

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

But the one scene that like stupidly made me laugh out loud was like the 1960s Spider-Man when he's like, Oh, he can do anything I can do.

SPEAKER_03 38:14

That was funny. That was and he just goes by him because he's too that's a great I love that that really made me laugh a lot harder than I thought it I was going to laugh at.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Like it was so dumb, but yeah, it did make that. But I will agree with you with the Ben Ryan. Like, I was like, oh, okay. Because then that's like, why is he on your A team? Like, why is he coming out here when he's like Well, he wasn't, he was he was immediately taken down.

SPEAKER_03 38:37

That is true.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

He was he was immediately taken down, but Miguel did pick him for that final mission, right? So you can do he's a club. Or maybe not, or maybe he's or maybe not, maybe not, or maybe he is, maybe is maybe it is, maybe he's not.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Other thing I did want to bring up, which I thought was like a cool connection that I thought of like right away, was like how the spot was like the guy who got hit with like the bagel and how the bagel became the symbol of like everything. And then I started thinking of like everywhere, ever, all at once, like right away, because it's like is the like the bagel for like the multiverse thing. Um I just connected those two movies there. Well, which I'm sure other people must have thought that as well.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Well, I sorry, I can't remember the name of those the two Daniels. Yeah, I could see Laura Miller paying paying respect to the two Daniels in that way. I could definitely see that happening. It's interesting you guys bring up the family. I think that might be sort of my disconnection with it. Not that I not that I don't have fun with my family. I have fun that, you know, I definitely have fun with my family, but for me, the family in the animated film is kind of a trope for me now. Like I think it's been overdone. And I see this as somebody who's had to sit through a ton of animated films with his nieces and nephews. And and um that's always been sort of like a mainstay in in the animated films. Like there's this sort of funny exchange between the kids and the parents, and it's always hilarious and it's always sort of kind of goofy. And I don't know, man. It just it just feels tropey to me I know, I you know, I think, but but but listen, I'm glad you guys enjoyed it. I'm sure there's a thousand other people listening to this that enjoyed it. Um, and that's what's important, you know. Like I said, uh, you know, I I think that Lord Miller did a fantastic job of striking a balance between what was interesting and fun, you know, for an adult audience or somebody the little bit older, while also kind of maintaining uh a level of appeal for you know kids and younger people. And I think that's important, especially with an animated project. Would I have liked to see this movie R-rated animated? Fuck yeah. I think it would have been amazing, but that's just me. I like animation.

SPEAKER_03 40:38

Oh, you could see him do the mart the mark of cane on someone.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

Hey, well, I listen, I love I love dark animation. One of my favorite scenes of any movie ever is uh is uh Quentin Tarantino's take on anime with uh with O'Ren Ishii. Not the not the blood and all the stabbing parts, but the other parts. Kill Bill Part One? Yeah, that thing is fucking insane. That is so good, so good. But yeah, okay, so moving on. Um, the one thing I want to talk about was the pace of the film. Because for me, I had to sort of adjust a little bit, if I'm being honest. You know, the two films that came before it for me were Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant-Man Quantumania. Not that I'm gonna sit here and praise Ant-Man Quantumania, that's not gonna happen. But but those films were like breakneck speed, like they were off and running like right away. Like we were into, you know, we were into the sort of set the the you know, the setting of every film pretty quickly, but with this one, uh, there's sort of a meandering sort of pace to it. And I just kind of felt myself sort of reacting, not necessarily, yeah, reacting more than analyzing. I felt myself reacting more than analyzing to it. And I felt like the pace could have been a little bit quicker, a little bit peppier. Um, I hope I'm not losing my patience. I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be someone, you know, uh that loses his attention to, you know, his his, you know what I mean, like short attention span. I don't want to be that guy, but I just felt like it was very different. I had to adjust to it. What were your guys' thoughts on the pace of the movie?

SPEAKER_01 42:07

So I do think they stayed with like in Miles' world for a long time, but I do think that was a lot of buildup for the second movie. Very much how, again, two very different movies, like Dune part one is very much like a build to the second movie, right? Um and so I was okay with the pace only because there are so many characters coming in already. There's like a lot happening in this story, and one could get lost in it in terms of following all these storylines. So I think slowly going through it didn't quite lose me in that sense. But yes, I will say yeah, they spent a lot of time at the beginning on Gwen's story and also just the way they told it in a way that, like, in the end, it makes sense why Gwen is telling the story in the end too. Um, then moving into Miles. Yeah, I just feel like it was that build. It's like they're building this because the third movie is really gonna rely on these like emotional personal journeys, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Yep. No, I saw that too. And you know, they were definitely laying some groundwork for the family dynamic. Um, you know, as Miles has gotten older and taller and sort of he's coming into, you know, sort of young adulthood. Yeah, you know, I saw them sort of setting some foundations for that. And uh, you know, it made sense to me. It just like I said, it was just an adjustment. Um, because one of the things I love most about Guardians of Galaxy 3 was the pacing. Like that was just fucking insane. Like it was perfect. Like, as far as the way that they plotted that, plotted out that entire story, it was perfect for me. Um, Ryan, what about you, man? What were your thoughts on the pacing?

SPEAKER_03 43:47

So I I knew going into this movie that it was a part one of two, so I wasn't too uh disappointed. I don't want to say disappointed because it wasn't disappointing, but I wasn't too like worried when. things weren't moving as quickly as you'd expect them to move, right? Um, where they were just laying a lot of foundation in in in Miles's world and in Gwen's world. If you didn't know that it was a part one of two, it does a lot. It feels, I think, or if just like you you're not anticipating it to be the sort of like two part how do I explain this? It's less in as as you said, it's less uh if Finny Do were an endgame where there's sort of two separate movies but they're two parts of a whole it is more like a Dune more than two where it this one is setting up, I feel things things to come. Like there are a few plot points that I think are are put in this that will be picked up in in the second part. So I can see where the pacing could be kind of throw people off a little bit uh just due to the fact that you know there are times where you feel like okay I I was promised you know a bunch of dimensions and a bunch of spider people so far I've seen like two and a half, right? And then it all happens at once and then you get the whole climax and then it kind of like the hero learns his lesson and reaches his the apex of his story. I'll I'll say the protagonist one of the protagonists Miles in this case before the end of the movie so that the last end of the movie can can be the cliffhanger to the next movie. See what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 45:15

That that definitely makes sense. I will say I knew there was going to be a third Spider-Verse movie but I didn't realize I don't even know why I didn't think this but I didn't realize it was going to like be part one part two I was like they'll finish the story and then there'll be like another story. Cause then near the end I was like it's been a long time like I feel like there's a lot to do here especially like the last couple of scenes and I was like this feels like I was like you're strapped in. I was like wait this feels like it's ending right now. I was like what is going on? So I I yeah I don't know why in my mind I didn't think like yeah that makes sense or they will connect obviously um the two and that's why I also like the throw like talking about Uncle Aaron and everything because I find sometimes in movies and in TV shows like a character a really important character will die and then like they'll have one episode morning that character and then like it just like never comes up again. Right. And it's like that's not how like grief works um in terms of like real life stuff. So anyway that's like a side note but yeah I was when it was like to be continued I was shocked.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

I was like what so was I yeah so was I we you know when we got to the train part I looked at my clock and I was like this because it felt very climaxy to me it felt very climaxy to me and I was like it's not gonna they're not gonna end here like you know that doesn't make any sense and then I was like okay shit there's another another 20 minutes of this movie. I love the way they ended it I'm not saying I don't love the way they ended it I do love the way they ended it but but the music everything like going on on that train was all very much like super heightened and it had the energy of somebody was going to die or there was going to be something catastrophic happening you know shortly after that exchange between between Miguel and between between Miles. And I've got thought about that by the way and we'll get into that but but I found it weird that Miguel just sort of sat there while Miles charged off of his suit and then decided to venom zap him he just stood there and looked into his eyes and waited for it. I don't know that was very odd but that was yeah anyways but yeah no I get what you guys are saying for sure. So let's talk about the uh screenplay and the writing because honestly I feel like that was one of the best parts of this movie was the was the creativity in the writing the choices made as far as for the characters and as far as driving the story itself I was really impressed with some of the some of the things that they got into this story especially you know especially a part one like there's a lot of shit in this story to digest. Like it's not just you know it's not as linear and it's not as straightforward as the first Spider-Verse film was. So what were some of your guys' favorite creative choices in the movie?

SPEAKER_03 48:02

So one of the things that I I loved about this movie is uh so there's an idea in the theater um called meta theater uh as an an example for this would be uh when uh in Hamlet when they're watching the play and the play reflects what is going on in in the the the play in the play reflects what is going on in the play. To put it not complicated things. Right. Right? So this sort of has that vibe not meta theater but sort of like meta comic book movie or meta just meta comics in general like the like talking about the canon um uh saying that vulture has like hammer space and things like that like these these ideas kind of because it is working uh with the animated medium they're allowed to play around with with sort of those ideas of like the goofier sides uh of spider-man uh and I really like that part of the screenplay another thing I I I liked and I talked about this at the beginning of the the review was the sort of meta look at what not not what makes a Spider-Man but like what shapes a Spider-Man as as as a spider person goes through their journey right you have uh the death of Uncle Ben the crucibles yeah the the the people that in and the tragedies in his life that shape uh his sort of moral compass the why he is the way he is because if you if you notice Pavatzer Prabh you can call Peter Parker Pav Pav I they only say it one time in the movie and he says it really fast. I apologize. Pav uh is living a great life and this is kind of like the hallmark of uh a spider person that hasn't gone through anything past uh Uncle Ben dying right uh it's a spider person in in in their myth kind of comes into their own like there's this there's this phase where they're like oh being a spider person is amazing and then like tragic 15 tragedies happen and then they're like uh I don't want to be Spider-Man again and they kind of hint to that um with the there's a still of Hobie uh with the famous uh Spider-Man no more that is also in Spider-Man too right the garbage can yeah so that that is what that would be a a a canon event is I don't want to be Spider-Man anymore and what happens after that. So the fact that they sort of took these moments and and wove it into the screenplay as the hook of uh miles like the the struggle that Miles is facing sort of like a you know there's there's man versus nature there's man versus man versus self but this was like man versus like multiverse destiny I guess where where the villain is is sort of the spot right um but uh and as well uh Miguel O'Hara to some agree but the villain isn't really like the physical beings of them it is the unavoidable reality that every spider person uh has had this thing happen to the has had a bunch of things happen to them and you know he he coming to terms with the fact that it's gonna happen to him and Gwen also coming to terms that she thinks that her dad who is a captain as well she she will be responsible for that death. So these things unify these characters that um that that all have distinct personalities separate of each other. Yep. Obviously there's some similarities like they will always crack jokes for example except for the Ben Riley one who will only mope and be sad.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

So the but ultimately there are things that bind them at a at a at a at a cosmic multiversal uh level uh and I think it's just such a great way to tell a story of like man versus destiny um with it with this idea that like you know trying to change his destiny trying to save his dad battling with the outcomes I just thought it was really well written uh and and great me too you explained it so well right so eloquently yeah yeah in terms of yeah like change getting like this narrative that we know to be true for our Spider-Man and the and the thing is going back to like the first movie I feel like the theme very much was anyone can wear the mask like anyone can do this like you just have to believe in yourself because like Miles did not feel he was good enough he didn't feel like he deserved it but the idea was like anyone could wear this mask. Um which the second movie which I think this is like in Rio's speech that she says to her son which I think is so important she says something along along the lines of like don't let people tell you you don't belong but also like don't let other people tell you how your life is supposed to go. And she you know says like not everyone's gonna be rooting for you like I am and I'm like scared and you can take that you know that in so many different ways you know it directly relates to what's happening in Spider-Man where he goes and meets these people and they tell him this is how your life is supposed to be could also relate to him being like a Puerto Rican black kid in like New York trying to go into higher education. Like there's so many layers to that conversation.

SPEAKER_03 53:02

And I think that is such a being the wrong miles like not even being not even supposed to be Spider-Man quote unquote like it wasn't even destined for him in specific talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

For sure like the fact that this wasn't even supposed to be his story um that this was like an anomaly and that he's an anomaly. And so this idea that's like where he even says it himself in that scene where you know Miguel takes a while as you say you know staring into each other's eyes Frank for a bit they're lost in each other's gaze um where he says nah I'm gonna do it my way I thought that was such a short but powerful line. Like I kind of got chills when he said that. And like not only that but like you see Miles facing like the same issue that plagues like every other Spider-Man where it's like you have to hide your life from your friends your families people think you're flaky you lose people because of everything. And you know even Gwen's like don't tell your family like you shouldn't like it's not gonna go well and he's like right you know this whole thing where he's like no like I'm going to do this my own way I think that's such a powerful statement. Um and I I feel like it's told so well through the stories even when he saves you know this whole idea of the canon event I love that like where he like saves you know um Inspector Singh Inspector Singh and you know in in that as well where they're like oh well this is going to cause this and mind you there is like a big black matter hole that we don't really know through don't worry about that. Don't worry about that. Yeah we're not gonna think about it. But um even that in itself uh is really good. But yeah I'll Frank I'll let I'll let you go too. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 54:31

No listen I echo everything you guys are saying for sure. Um you know Spider-Man is one of those characters and this is why I've been so disappointed with the MCU version of Spider-Man is because Spider-Man gone through these events and stood the test of time on his own and he's he's always been sort of the solo character that that's that's had to you know hurdle all the hurdles in life and still keep going. And sure he's had confidants at times but they also tend to be mass heroes and they also tend don't and some of them don't even know his identity. But I think that's more because of Sony and Marvel's really fucked up deal that has done more to hurt the MCU and to hurt hurt the MCU Spider-Man than it has to benefit him, which means that Marvel when they sign a contract with Sony they're like well hey we're gonna do a movie together you got to use one of our characters too well what's that character going to do? Oh he's gonna be uh he's gonna be a chaperone cool all right let's rate this movie you know I think one of the things that Ryan Ryan nailed perfectly is that is that all these spider people have walked in each other's shoes. Like all the people that are standing around Miles as he realizes that his dad's gonna die if he doesn't save him have all felt that feeling maybe not in that sense maybe not in that in that position to sort of intervene and change things with you know with the precognition that that something's gonna happen but but in the sense of like they've been there they know the loss but they're still standing around and they're still trying to empathize with him while at the same time trying to stop him that's that's wild to me. That's that's that's that's a lot to deal with. And like I said the script is is so good in that way. And and and if you think about it this is this is one of the more Spider-Man stories that we've ever gotten on screen other than some of the animated series as far as like the first one in the 90s and well no probably just the first one in the 90s spectacular Spider-Man isn't really that complex it's good but it's not that complex. He does make a cameo though he does yes we did see actually right but no music I was hoping for the music but that would have totally killed the mood. So I'm glad he didn't do that. But yeah you know they all know exactly what's coming they all exactly know what he's gonna deal with and they still have to stand there and try and stop him because it's their responsibility. Somebody was arguing that you know Peter B. Parker and some of the other Peters would have jumped in and and and tried to help Miles. No that's not the case at all. Miles is in a in a in a unique position. He's in a he he he's in a position where he hasn't lost anybody yet so he's still dealing with it.

SPEAKER_03 57:21

He lost his uncle well yeah sorry he lost his uncle but I mean he's like he hasn't lost his father he's still at the same uh place that Pavi is sort of where he's like oh being Spider-Man is you know easy other than sort of trying to balance uh school and you know that but like right there there's a as I said there's a lot to being a spider person and uh he he's in that same phase where he's like or what is it uh when it's in in the the honeymoon phase of being Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_02 57:46

Yeah but you know it's it's it's just a more sort of complex and much larger multiversal trolley problem right like are you gonna save your dad or are you gonna save the rest of the universe? Are you going to risk the rest of the universe? And I was kind of disappointed that we didn't get more of a backstory on Miguel. That's one of the reasons I felt like the pacing was kind of off because there was these exposition moments for for for for miles and Gwen um again uh you know sort of repeated from the same first movie and I thought that may have been better used for Miguel or maybe somebody else like Jess Drew or or somebody else I thought that may have been a better a better use of the time. But yeah we're talking about the favorite sort of creative choices in this movie and one of them that for me was was uh the whole thing that you guys talked about is is is Miguel telling is Miguel telling Miles that he's he's a mistake he doesn't belong. And the way that it was set up in with his mom what Saba was saying I'm concerned about what that means for the five for the final movie. I'm sorry and I know you guys are probably gonna vehemently disagree with me but Miles can't get a happy ending in the third movie. He can't save his dad because that's that's just bullshit to me. That doesn't make any sense I know everybody wants a happy ending but why should he be the only one out of all of them that gets to gets to change destiny? That's that's I don't know that just doesn't that just doesn't track for me.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

Yeah for me I do understand where you're coming from that you want him to feel the sense of loss I think there's more than one way to do that in terms of him losing his father. I think another way that this could be done and again this is just me guessing is that they close off the multiverse forever that he loses that connection that he has to these other people but he knows that they still live on in their world and they know that they could also fight against what they think their destiny is. And I think that would be also a loss in itself. You know what I mean? Because I I do feel like the story does have to end with his story being different that he chooses this to be different that he sees how this is going to play out and says no. So that's why I don't think that his father died.

SPEAKER_02 59:58

Again, I could be completely wrong but that's kind of more where I'm leaning okay well let me say to that I can get like I get where you're coming from the story definitely does need to be different for Miles but at the same time we've already seen the consequences of trying to defy the timeline or trying to defy the canon as it's sort of framed in this and that was Miguel destroying an entire universe just by trying to have a family so it's already painted like like if you ask me the mil Lord and Miller have already painted themselves into a corner and if they don't stay in the corner to finish that story that's a little yeah that's a little too easy for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

Okay so this is where I do have a question for you and this is a general question because I this is something I've been thinking about. We saw what happened with Pav's world when they skipped the canon event yep I mean Miles' world right now the original Peter Parker is dead he is not supposed to be Spider-Man they have skipped all these canon events why is his world still intact when it has not gone the way it's supposed to go that's like I don't know why. Miles's world yeah like the world that Miles is in he was never supposed to be Spider-Man that Spider-Man was not supposed to die. These events were not supposed to happen so why is the same thing that's happening to Pav's world not happening to Miles' current world that is completely off course.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:19

Okay well as a writer I'm very excited by this question. I could spend weeks on this trying to come up with a solution right and I'd try and make it as cool as possible but I don't want you asking that question thinking that at some point in the third movie that they're gonna come up with some spectacular answer for that because I guarantee you they they don't even know that they're in that position. That's not even factored into their creative process right now. I doubt it. I really doubt it because they could have if they plotted all three of these movies out they could have avoided that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:54

So they could have avoided it but they didn't. So that's the thing like it might not be in their thought process at all but it honestly could be because for me that's like the most glaring pothole like plot hole I said pothole but plot hole and like the whole thing would be that is that why like literally like the events in this world has gone so differently. So like to me that would be a big plot hole. Again like I don't like I don't know the answer at all but it's just something that did like pop up in my head in terms of like maybe could be addressed.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

Yeah. Um I don't know how you get yourselves out of that one. Maybe they've painted themselves into two corners but a square room like a hole like a like a room. Like a room they're in the they're in a circular room and they're standing in the middle and they've painted from the outside edge into the into the middle.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:50

It's like when you mop it's like when you mop the floor and then you're like oh shit I like moped myself into which I've done and you're just kind of like tiptoe.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:59

But yeah anyway I don't know Ryan if you also have like have have thoughts on that or not but that's like I don't know how they're gonna go in the third movie but I I sort of have I have an idea based on some little like foreshadowing thematic nuggets that I feel like they laid in this one. The fact that when Gwen uh tells her dad that ends up working out in her favor because he's no longer a captain. And then we have the scene where Rio um where Rio says you know no matter what just know that there will be a place for you here and we will love you. Right? Yep. And you know Miles is struggling to tell this truth. He's hold he's holding it in the the the big uh Spider-Man truth uh right and notoriously uh in comics when Spider-Man reveals his identity it sort of it it it kind of fucks him up or or it like sometimes works sometimes doesn't right um but they're both usually very extreme uh examples of so an idea that I had was could it be that the way to avoid certain can canon events is to not you know is to be a different spider person. You know there's sort of this template that uh the spider people follow in terms of like canon events, right? But what if you know you do something that a s no other spider person has done for example reveal your identity um well I mean Spider-Man has done it uh numerous times but I I'm saying like it it within the mythos that they've presented uh in the story revealing your identity to um revealing the truth telling the truth to to your family um like I I think that that could be sort of a foreshadowing to to how this ends where you know he he he uh tells the truth to to his family and that changes the outcome and and that he doesn't you know uh beat the spot uh and you know like physically beat the spot and then save his his dad from from crumbling rubble he the the way he beats it is by defying history going his own way as he says uh doing his own thing yeah but that makes him but that makes him Deus machina that makes him neo and well I mean yeah but at the same time it does it like he it like it's already sort of like I don't know how to explain this to to me that feels like sort of like the the culmination of something that they've set up in this one. Obviously if that's not where they go with it that's totally fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:39

Okay so anything in the end or anything that gets us back into that conversation about the writing that you guys that you guys enjoyed?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

No I think we I think we covered it overall in terms of like if we're thinking of like references or things that have been said I have to say like the scene between Gwen and her father at the end I thought was really beautifully animated and done and I really also Also thought the writing of Gwen's final speech that she sort of says at the end was also very well written and well voice acted.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:12

Right. So you know, there's been a lot of controversy around Miles as far as the discourse. There's a lot of people that just like, you know, they're like, he's Miles Morales, he's not Spider-Man. And I wanted to get your guys' thoughts on Lord and Miller taking this direction with what was said about where he belongs in the Spider-Verse. Like, do you guys feel like that's gonna fuel things, or do you think that's just do you think it's kind of like something more ambiguous?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:42

I don't think like they're going to make a story for the like there's gonna be people who don't believe he's Spider-Man, and I don't think they're gonna worry about making a story for those people. Because it's like you there's not much you can do. I mean, you can hopefully try to convince them in some way, but I know personally, like I wouldn't not I don't want to say like waste my time or whatever, but like yeah, like I don't think that would play into it. And I think this whole movie is actually about that like finding his place, like maybe these movies were a response to that when Miles first was announced as like a Spider-Man, right? But I don't know if they'll like really go into it all and like make specific references to it in the last movie. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:25

Well, you brought up themes, but I think the themes are gonna take us back into some of the foreshadowing because when Ryan started talking about foreshadowing, I started thinking about all the foreshadowing, and there's a lot of fucking foreshadowing in this movie, like there's a ton actually, and it's actually in the themes of the movie, like what you said about Ryo's speech to her son about where he belongs, and and and sort of trying to have a sense of belonging and and sort of standing up for himself, that's big. And also, I think the cakes are a part of some foreshadowing. I'm not proud.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:56

Remember the whole thing? I'm not proud.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:59

No, no, no, no, no, not that. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And Miles says, unless you have two cakes.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:04

And then he gets two cakes with the honestly.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:09

Like the other night I said to somebody, I said to somebody, I feel like the cakes are the thesis of the entire film.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:15

If you ask, and then at the end, uh or close to the middle, he he she says, uh Rio says to him, just come back with one nice cake. As in, like, you can't have your you know, don't pick two two lives, right? Come back with one neat.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:29

Oh wow, yeah, there's a lot of cake talk.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:31

There is a lot of cake talk. Okay, we'll talk about that after we talk about the final reveal, but let's talk about the characters because I want to talk about uh paveter. Is it uh pav? Okay, we'll talk about the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:40

Yeah, so it's a uh probarker, but you can just call him Pav.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:43

Okay, Pavet or Pav Probarker?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:45

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:46

I'm gonna say Path.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:48

Okay, so okay, so favorite care favorite top three characters in this movie, Saba, go.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:53

Oh man. Okay, well, obviously, Miles love, love Miles. Um, I have to say, and just like the spider characters, obviously Gwen. Okay, I need to make this fairer on you.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:05

How about we do this? Favorite new, favorite new spider characters, top three.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:10

New spider characters. Okay, got it. Hmm. Okay, so I really liked, I really liked obviously. I mean, this one's obvious. Like, Hobie Brown is so freaking cool and badass. And it's like even Miles was like, How are you even more cool out of the suit? Yeah. I just like, I don't, I don't really know. Um, obviously, I love Pav. I've got a soft spot for Pav. I really like Greta Lee's character, who is like just like the little CGI girl who's like kind of has a bit of attitude. Spider bite, not spider bite, uh Layla. Layla.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:41

Oh, yeah, his uh his little his little avatar.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:44

Right, right, right. Yeah. Um, I just like the attitude, and I love Greta Lee. Watch past lives if you haven't seen past lives. That's so good. Um, but I like that. Uh and I do like Issa Ray's character as well. Um, but yeah, I would have to say my favorite was probably of the new ones, Hobie. Um I really liked Pav and I I did like Layla as well. Okay, cool. Ryan, what about you, buddy?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:09

Uh, I mean Hobie one.

unknown 1:10:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:12

Uh Miguel O'Hara two. Yeah. Uh and then you you narrowed it down to new. So I guess Pav was probably Pav was he he was a a a standout like newcomer. I wasn't I was not familiar with uh do they call him Spider-Man India? Is is that Spider-Man India, yeah. That's that's okay, that's the proper label for him. Yeah. Uh or his title. Um, so I wasn't I'm not up on that version. I don't know uh any of his uh you know if he if he where he derives from uh any of his stories or anything like that. I don't think he has any dude. I don't I think they created him out of whole cloth. So he's he's a he's a new new to the new? All right, for sure. So then yeah, he he's great and they should do a comic run on him because I think it would do it would do amazingly. You could do it in the same art as this. It would just I I know that comics don't fly off the shelves, but uh that's a wish that uh that I want. I I would read that comic. Yeah, um, so yeah, definitely, definitely top three. Uh it's just it's real hard to beat Hobie, just that vibe that he brings, just every show stealer, uh scene stealer, I guess. Uh, and then uh Oscar Isaac is Miguel O'Hara is great. And uh I'm glad we finally got to see 99 on the screen.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:19

Yeah, I forgot to mention Spot is also like so well done. I just wanted to bring that up because like literally, I when I saw the trailer, I thought he was gonna be quote unquote villain of the week kind of thing, like small time villain will take care of you. The actualization of his character, so especially when he's been like the butt of jokes a lot. Uh yeah. And Jason Schwartzman also did a job.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:41

Spot was cool because it was it was the ridicule that was fueling him the entire time. So again, it's almost a canon event in a sense of Miles' own canon event. Like he's literally driving this guy to go and get more power, so he's not just this villain of the week, so he's not so easily dismissed. So Miles essentially driving this this villain's development, like his his almost hunger for power. Like Miles is behind all of it. And that's another reason why I feel like something bad needs to happen in the end to Miles. Like it just can't be it can't be happy ending. Like he's almost brought it well, not necessarily brought it on himself, but but you know, he created the spot through his actions, and now he's fueling the spot, and now the spot's got this tremendous power, and he's seen the vision of this tremendous power from the spot, you know, taking the life of his father. So I don't I don't know where it goes from here, but yeah, but to like sort of uh the characters I like, definitely Pav. I thought Pav was awesome. Um, I do want to talk about that little uh trinket that he has in his webs though, because that does not make any sense to me. So somebody has to explain it because that's definitely not shooting out of his wrist or a web shooter. So how and why, I get the cultural significance of it, and I think that's very cool. But as a Spider-Man or sort of uh a powers purist or or or or a tech purist, you know, for characters, uh that just kind of threw me a little bit. But everything else about that character was amazing. Um, I loved every moment with that character. I could have seen an entire movie with that character if I'm being honest, and that world. That world was awesome. I thought that world was really amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:20

And I can I counter the uh the web slinger for uh shoot. All right. Um earlier in the movie, and I and I mentioned it as well, they mention hammer space. Yep. Uh as a justification for how Spider Ham can, you know, pull a big ass hammer out of his ass, or the vulture can sprout another wing after one gets broken down. Uh, I think that each dimension sort of has its own rules, and I guess in that dimension, the sort of like bangle uh toy, rope toy web thing just works for him. Is is what I would assume, just based off of like the the the justification the justification. Otherwise, I guess it's just like because he he is a uh a Peter, not a Peter, but you know he's a Peter. So he he he should be smart. So maybe he just invented something that works like that. But yeah, though those would be my two justifications for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:08

Here's here's the way I'm thinking about it, and I'm trying to justify it. He wears it on his wrist, and when he needs a blunt object to kind of knock somebody out or whatever, he just kind of throws it onto the line and knows how to knows how to use it because there's other scenes where the end of his webs were attaching to things, so that sort of nullified the need for that device, and that device was gone. I don't know. Sabah, you got any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:32

Yeah, I I'm not too sure. It like had like a very yo-yo-like quality to it. Um, and yes, like the bangles a significant reference. I do like it. I don't know, like, yeah, how he like web. I have to rewatch his scenes maybe to like really break down how he does use it. But yeah, it's like, you know, I mean, let's be honest, like a teenage kid making like a web thing that can like literally like has a tensile force to this like to let you like swing across, like, is also kind of far fetched. So I'm like, okay, if they give me a good re like, I'll rewatch, but I could buy it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:05

I hear you. But we bought that premise how long ago? Like, we've we've been buying it. 1963. Right, exactly. That's the problem is we bought that one. But, anyways, I like I don't know. It works for me if I put it in my head the way that I put it in my head. Like, he just uses it a blunt blunt force object to kind of knock people out when he's web swinging. I think that's a a cool idea, or like sort of a heavy weight around the end of it so we can use it to uh tie around shit or whatever. But, anyways, um, I'd love to see a crossover between him and the two guys from RRR. That would be that would be dope. Somebody get working on that graphic novel. That would be insane. But yeah, no, I loved him. I loved Hobie Brown. I thought Hobie was amazing. I'd love that every time a situation arose where he could stir the pot or piss somebody off, he always did it. He didn't even hesitate. He was just like, yeah, he's like, I'm gonna tell Miles on how to get out of this thing, and then I'm gonna quit. But I kind of felt like it was sort of parody in a sense, too. Like it almost felt like there was no barometer to his personality or his emotions at all. Yeah, that like there was no there was no progression. You know what I'm saying? You know, he kind of entered the movie and he kind of had an effect almost immediately, not only kind of kind of with the whole love triangle aspect of things, but also um obviously coming in and saving the day by breaking down the barrier and and helping in Mumbatan. But then he gets back to the base and then he's just like this sort of, you know, this sort of militant, like, I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want, type of type of revolutionary. And I don't know, it was it was interesting. It would, you know, they were interesting choices. I felt like it was it was parody in a sense of amplifying who his character was. Do you guys want to did you guys get what I'm trying to say?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:48

And I can I I'm gonna counter again.

unknown 1:16:50

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:50

I'm like Street Fighter, I'm countering left and right. Um, no, the way I see it, right, is is he's anarchist, he's punk, he's anti-establishment. And the establishment that he currently is is in is the spider society led by Miguel O'Hara. So he's trying to like disassemble the establishment, I guess, from within. In addition to that, I know this is gonna call back to another foreshadowing thing, but he does kind of instruct Miles on how to use his venom better. Yeah, and I don't know if that's supposed to be a hint towards the fact that he has like the Miles version powers, um, so the the invisibility and the uh the venom, uh, and not the the Peter version of the powers. All right. Um I I don't I feel like there is a lot, I feel like uh Hobie is kind of used as as a way for um Miles to kind of break out, right? Uh and then and then as you say, he kind of leaves. But I think that they're doing that because they have they're I think they're using um they're foreshadowing something for the next movie with him, uh with him and Miles's powers or with him and uh just sort of like anti-establishmentism and and punk rock. Uh I I don't that's just sort of the vibe I got that that his his story arc is just sort of like beginning in this one, it'll have a bigger impact in the next one. Right. But that was just the vibe I got.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:10

Yeah, and one thing too is like Hobie, isn't he like in another like he's also the prowler in like other comic series as well, which I mean I don't know if they'll make this connection because that is like very far off that like you know his uncle's the prowler, and then also from the ending of the movie we found out another prowler, but um there's that connection too. But yeah, yeah, no.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:31

Um they also say he's different when uh I think Pav is talking to Miles and says something, oh, you didn't tell him about Hobie, and then uh Gwen says something like oh Hobie's different. I don't know if that was supposed to be a hint that Hobie is not because they even do the sort of identity thing, like they put the the question mark in front of his face when he like takes off his mask. Yeah, but I don't know. There's like an extra layer to Hobie that I think they're hinting at is what I is what is ultimately what I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:00

Hmm. Yeah, I guess so. I I think they were they they were just trying to be antagonistic with the writing, but that's but that's just me. Um but yeah, okay. How do you guys feel about Miguel Here? How'd you feel guys feel about Oscar Isaac's performance?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:12

I mean, as always, like Oscar Isaac delivers. I think he um did that well. I will say we did not get like the hugest, we did get his like backstory told through him, and he showed like the web of everything, like the web of life and stuff. Um, but I felt like I understood his character very quickly. The one thing that I do want to, and I don't even know if I'll ever explore this, is like how he got them to rally all these Spider-Man to rally, like how you know what I mean, in terms of creating this HQ and how he like runs this operation. Um, that stuff we didn't quite get. But I do think the character of Miguel was a very interesting one. Um, and I like that he is like octagonistic without not without being like the main antagonist of the story. Um, and I think he will also have an arc in the next movie as well, because we really just saw like his anger and which makes sense. Um but I think there's probably this is a character that will have to be explored more in the next movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:12

Yeah, well he's he's he's the reactionary, right? Like he's he's the one that's sort of trying to hold everything together, and he's not necessarily seeing things in the most rational way you can see things. He's seeing things as like one wrong step and boom, the world's gone. So he's not taking any chances. You know, it's that you know, it's that uh it's that Batman speech about Superman, you know. If you know, if there's even a what is it, Ryan? A 1% chance or yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:42

Yeah, to tip to paraphrase, he's like uh if there's even a 1% chance that you know he could be a threat later on, you know, we can't take that chance.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:49

Yeah, and that's the way he's kind of seeing the situation with Miles. Um what did you guys think about the big reveal that that Miles was an anomaly?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:57

I thought that would I actually really I want to know how it happened, but I thought that was interesting. And at first I was confused in terms of like, oh, is like Miles never supposed to be Spider-Man. Um but like we do know there are other Spider-Mans and like in his world, like his like his miles that Miles, I mean okay, let me start again. And like like the were Earth 42, there was a Miles that was supposed to be Spider-Man, and then you know, Miles himself, because of whatever happened with the multiverse, end up becoming that. I do like that. I feel like it it turns everything on its edge. It makes it make sense why like all these events are happening around him. Um and it kind of goes back to the first movie's theme of like anyone can wear the mask.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:41

Yeah, um, yeah, that's for sure. It is it is it the death of his father that takes that pushes him to be to to become the prowler? Probably, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:52

Yeah, I think or just like becoming hardened over time because we see that the city, because they said that the because this version of New York doesn't have a Spider-Man because the the spider went away. Right. So it could literally just be that you know he grew up. I don't well, because we don't know when in the timeline he would have been bit, right? Um, but let's say shortly after he was supposed to be bit, New York just starts falling apart, right? He's still impressionable because that's around when he's like what 14. So it it it's kind of at that age where you you know you're uh what is it, nature nurture versus nature uh scenario. Um it could be just a uh a the fact that New York is just now like crime. Like even on the radio, we hear like the Sinister Six gang. Like there's a gang called the Sinister Six in it. Yeah, right. So so it could just be that the city is in such a state of disrepair that he's not even like the prowler a thief. He's like the prowler trying to like survive, right? Uh it could literally just be that life or death, like his uncle had to train him to get tough because you know New York got tough.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:00

Right. Well the well the the challenging thing about that choice as far as no Spider-Man in that world is that Sony can't Sony is in a position where that's sort of a really farcical idea because every other Marvel hero lives in New York City. But in Sony's universe, in Sony's universe, it's only Spider-Man that lives in that city. And spider and spider-affiliated heroes and spider-affiliated villains. But apparently, you know, the the world that they've created in their in their film, even if it is a multiverse scenario, doesn't have any of Mar other Marvel heroes in it because all the buildings wouldn't be on fire and you know the criminality wouldn't be at the height that it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:49

So Yeah, somebody would have came along and done something.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:53

Yeah, they definitely painted themselves into the corner on that one.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:56

Um I mean, just in New York alone, you got you know Iron Man, Fantastic Four, Daredevil, yeah, it's the list goes on.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:04

I would not want to live there.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:05

There is just too much going on in New York for me in this universe to be like if here if if heroes actually existed, it would probably be the safest place you could be in, to be honest. I don't know about that because then there's all the villains.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:19

Yeah, nothing's happening in Canada. Like we're in Canada, they're not coming up here for their battle.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:24

I don't know if you saw on the news, but I think half of our provinces are on fire right now. Oh, that is a few things are happening in Canada.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:30

You're right, you're right. That is, I mean, superhero-wise. Yes, all my windows are currently closed.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:36

Um there is that cool. All right, well, listen, let's get into the uh the twist ending, let's talk about that, what it means, and then let's get into some crazy theorizing with all the foreshadowing, because when Ryan mentioned foreshadowing, I just started putting pieces together in my head, and I may have a theory on how they're gonna end this. I don't know, but we'll see. So the big reveal is obviously that Miles mistakenly after using the go home machine because the spider from 42 bit him, he doesn't get taken back to 1610, he gets taken back to 42 because it altered his DNA. Now, here's another question, and this is gonna this is gonna be total like sort of like nitpicky, but when you mix the like, isn't there any part of the 1610 DNA left that would sort of fuck the fuck up that that result? You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:27

Like well, maybe uh counter. Um maybe oh god, here we go. I know maybe the go home machine looks at the spider's DNA because that's the thing that like differentiates all the spider people, is where the the spider came from. So because the spider came from 42, the DNA to analyze was the 42 spider and it's it to 42.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:46

That checks out. I would buy that. Yeah, I would definitely that would hold in court for me. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:51

And the go home machine is shaped like a spider, so there you go. There you go.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:54

Oh, the animation on that was gross. You it looked like wet and gooey. Um it's like a PlayStation 2 cutscene.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:02

No, dude, it looked like it looked like the Matrix thing that pulls Neo out of the fucking thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:06

That's exactly what it looks like.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:07

It looked exactly like that, anyways. Um, yeah, so we go so so he gets back to 42 and it turns out that Uncle Aaron is alive. Uh his father, Jeff, is dead. Are his mom and his uncle banging? No, not no. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:21

No, I don't think so. I don't think that even a little bit. I think he is taking care of like control. Yeah, that just both me and Ryan were like, nope, nope, nope. Holy shit.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:33

I think okay, to give Frank some credit, I think it can be read that way. Um, however, I think it's more like uh, you know, it's his it's his brother's wife, right? So it's his it's his sister-in-law. He has to like check up on her, has to make sure she's right. Yeah, it's nephew, like it's it's just sort of like a close family thing where like he he now feels responsible to like help them out because they don't have um Jeff anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:56

But he's a criminal, he's a full-up criminal. Well, so's Miles. Yeah, and Miles is too, and he's the prowler. And apparently the prowler now wears Nike dunks instead of gravity shoes, like he's supposed to. Did you show their dunks? I think so. Or Jordan's are they dunks or Jordan's?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:14

Well, because Miles wears Jordan 1 Chicago's. Okay. So I don't know if the other Miles, I know the other Miles doesn't wear the Jordan 1 Chicago colorway, but it might be uh I'm a shoe head. Uh so it might be like just like I think it was like an all like black and white one, but it could have been a dunk because they they share a lot of the same attributes. Uh I'll have to rewatch. Um, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:34

Yeah, I want to say that that scene when he's like going into the world. You can already tell like the animation is a little weird. And I will say this because my boyfriend like was really proud of himself because he's watching it next to me and he whispers to me, he's like, This isn't his world, it's not his world. And I was like, Shut up, like I'm watching the movie. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:49

And so there is, I think. I don't know if I if it was just a trick of the light or the way it animated. I think Ryo in the in Miles' original world has browser. Eyes and then in the other version has green eyes. Yeah. And I noticed in the middle, in the middle of like watching, I was like, did real always have green eyes? And then I was like, huh, I guess she probably did. And then the realization kicks in, and I'm like, wait, did I like missea that or something? So no, they definitely they hinted at sort of like the uh Luke Kylo fight at the end of Last Uh Last Jedi. Yeah. Um, where with the with the lightsaber sort of thing, just like a small thing that like clues you in. I thought that was really creative.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:25

Yeah, totally, dude. Totally. And the other part was um Miles and Rio have the exact same eyes, basically. And then when Miles was or or 42 Miles was revealed, I was looking at his eyes to see they were green. Miles G Morales. And they weren't green. So I don't know what was up with that. That was kind of odd. But anyways, yeah, so he's the prowler, and he's got Miles in prison tied to that, tied to that uh punching bag, and uh the cut uh to be continued. Um, and that's about it. Oh, and he's got braids in his hair. I forgot about that. Oh, wait, there is gravity in his in his Nikes. I've got it playing in the background right now. There's gravity, there's gravity devices in his Nikes. That's cool. Yeah, that is cool. I didn't notice that at first. I thought he was just wearing Nikes. I thought he was giving up his his amazing power set just to look cool, but apparently it all works in concert with each other.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:18

Hey, listen, man. The drip is forever. All right. The drip is forever.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:22

And his mask looks like out of something out of um uh one of those digital uh music shows. Like like it looks like Daft Punk would be rocking it, like the way the lights, the lights were set up. Very different from his uncle's prowler mask. But uh, but yeah. Okay, so go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:39

Oh, oh yeah, sorry, I just about that too. Like uh if we're gonna talk more about that scene of them like facing each other, um you can just see the hardened look on like the Miles G. Morales and what he's gone through and when they even pan out to the world, and yes, it's on fire, and it's like the colors are darker. Uh yeah, insane and insane to be continued to end on.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:59

Yeah, it is, yeah, yeah. It's red, it's red and it's darker. Absolutely. And he does look way harder. Yeah, and he does look way harder for the city.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:06

Also, it's more gray smog for me right now. But in the morning, I was like, that light is very orange coming into my uh coming through my windows.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:14

Yeah, cool. All right, well, let's wrap this up by talking about um some of the foreshadowing. I want to hear what your guys' thoughts are. So again, I think the cake thing is a thesis for me because it's because it's emphasized so much throughout the movie. And with Miles saying that you can't have your cake in each, or sorry, you can't have your cake in eat two, and then he's like, Well, what if you have two cakes? That was that was interesting to me. I think what we may see happen, because like I said, the story cannot end on an absolute idyllic note. It just can't, right? It just can't. Um, oh, and by the other way, the other spider people show up at the end uh to meet Peter because they're all gonna go save miles with Gwen. Forgot to talk about that. And Spider-Man even the Nick Cage seemed to be. Yeah, Spider-Man Noir is back. Um, I don't know if he's voiced by Cage, not voiced, he's just there. Yeah, but like but I'm saying in the sequel will he be voiced by Cage? That's the question, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:31:06

I hope so. Yeah, he did a great job.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:08

Yeah, and Pav is back, Pav's on the team, so that was cool. And Penny, Penny's back on the team. Okay, so go so back to the theory. Um so yeah, so like I said, it cannot end in a an idyllic scenario for Miles. It just can't. It'll it'll just be bad writing, it's gonna fall very flat. So what I think is gonna happen is the the the the spider cannon can only fire follow the spider people, and 42 doesn't have a spider-man. So I think Miles is gonna stay in 42 to save his to save his dad. Interesting theory.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:38

I have oh that is a sort of a sort of similar theory. Yes, and yeah, there there is a cost. I uh let me okay, so uh um the uh whole thing is that he you know with the cakes, uh have two cakes, right? Yeah, um, so that you can live he basically he's saying like not if you live the double life, like if you have two people, like but he's realizing that he can't be two places at once. What if he realizes hey, if I don't if I'm not Spider-Man, my dad doesn't die because I'm not Spider-Man. So he gives his powers to 42, right? But in doing so, Mayday Parker no longer exists because remember, uh, Peter B. Parker says that it's because of of her that um so I the idea I think is that to beat Spot, he goes like he goes through the universe to correct the the the where the spider goes so that it bites the correct miles and it sort of like flashpoint, it screws up the whole spider world, and and we see sort of a darker uh version uh uh of the spider universes where you know things don't go as planned. You know, everything everything in this movie is sort of like this is destiny, this is concrete, these are the webs that bind us. But what happens if that does fall apart? Uh I think is is sort of the next thing. And then we realize, and this also ties back into the the Hobie um the Spider-Man No More comic thing because he's choosing not to be Spider-Man, he's giving the Spider-Man to the other Miles. Um, and uh this this we then go through, you know, he has to learn that no, it's not about you know being in two places at once or you know having two cakes, it's about making the best cake, the best like life that you can make with the people around you. So I think that's where they're going with it, but that's just me based off of like the little nuggets, because uh there's like the few little bits that I that I think uh foreshadow. But that's my theory.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:40

That's an interesting theory. And are you saying that when we saw Hobie doing the Spider-Man No More, that was the future and that wasn't a past event?

SPEAKER_03 1:33:49

No, it was a past event for Hobie, but I'm saying that because it is a thing that spider people do, right? Miles will hit it in the next movie and it will cause a conflict be because he it's not it's not him taking off um the suit and just throwing it in the trash. It's him like not having powers at all. Right. Would would be the idea. So I uh it's kind of like a play on um the Spider-Man, no more sort of like, but with like a I don't want to say like flashpoint because like flashpoint's like its whole own thing, but it's sort of like a similar uh uh McGuffin, I guess, to uh that that would cause it, would be uh a thing that I would say.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:28

Yeah, talk about yeah, talk about being beaten over the head by multiverse movies. The next one's the flash, like Jesus Christ, give us a break, guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:35

Yeah, everyone loves the multiverse. Frank, I really actually like your the the theory of what were you the one who said like Miles gives his powers? No, Ryan said gives his powers.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:46

I said he's going to 42 to be the Spider-Man there to take over. Yeah, those are because Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:52

Go ahead. Oh no, those are both really because like I agree, there does have to be loss in some sense. I mean, for the story itself, which I know this whole thing is about turning that on its head. I do believe that his father will survive. I don't think because like, yeah, I just feel like his father will, but I think the idea of him giving up his powers or him being the Spider-Man to that world does make sense so that he knows his father is alive in another world. Um and he's in this world sort of doing that. I also do think like for me, I I do think the doors to the spider-verse will be closed. And they will yeah, like I think they'll continue to exist on their own. I think that in itself is enough to cause so many anomalies. Um I think Miguel has like two, I mean, he can either go straight villain or see the wrong in his ways. I don't know which way he's gonna go.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:46

Like, is he gonna he's got too much Spider-Man in him? I don't think he's going straight villain. Like, like I don't think we've ever seen a spider character go straight villain. Um, I think he's definitely on the gray area. He is a vampire. We didn't get to really see him explore that, which was disappointing. Like I said, R-rated version, bring it on. Um, you know, I'd like to get an idea more about why he's a vampire, like a Spider-Man vampi. I don't I don't know. It was it it's it's it's a really weird thing to me. Um I wanted to read that comic, but I never got a chance to get into it because I was too much into Peter Parker um at the time. 2099?

SPEAKER_03 1:36:22

Yeah. Yeah. So I I can give you like just like a breakdown real quick uh of like the things that make him different. So one of them is the fact that uh he worked at like the the company that uh manufactures like chemicals. It's not Alcamex, but it's something else. It like I think he like works at like Parker Industries in the future of 2099, if I remember correctly, but it could also just be Alcamex. Um and then he uh I don't think it's a spider that bites him. I think he like uh tests something like something on himself, uh, and he he gains the spider powers, but they're not like the same spider powers because he's got like the claws on the tips of his fingers and stuff like that. The suit is actually a Halloween costume, uh funnily enough. What the fuck? Yeah, like the origins of like the uh suit. It was uh uh Deos de los Muertos, the the day of the dead like costume that he wore, and he just like edited it to make called Spider-Man. Uh obviously the version that we see um in in the movie is a little bit souped up. But yeah, that's basically the gist. He he and then he's he's faster, usually is is the sort of catch is that oh he was terrifying to watch move in this. Like he was like he was like a fucking freight train dude. They use the sound of the the the sting that they used for Prowler as like a shorthand when he like appears, they do like a similar thing in like a different key, and you're like, oh, so this character's gonna be like similar in the way that he's gonna be like chasing. Right. And I think that that was really creative.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:53

Um the other thing we haven't talked about is is Secret Wars is upcoming, right? And if you remember from the comic book Run, Miles Morales, that's where that's where the earth, the the the other Earths appeared for the first time, I think, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:38:09

Was in the modern Secret Wars, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:38:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:13

That's that's where uh Ultimate Universe and the like the characters from the Ultimate Universe were brought over into the uh 616 universe. So Miles was Miles is in the 616 universe now with Peter uh because of Secret Wars.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:27

Right. In 1990, the Earth 1999 was referenced in this movie. Yep. Um, and I found that interesting too. Lord Miller said it was a throwaway. I don't think it's a throwaway because Donald Glover's also in the movie. Donald Glover is in the movie. That was interesting. Um, we didn't talk about that. That was the weirdest cameo I've ever seen. He just in full prowler gear. Sitting there in full prowler gear. And what's her face has been saying um the actress that plays Miss Marvel, what's her name again? Amon Velani. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. She's been saying that the Marvel MCU is nine is 1999 because that's the ultimate universe, and and you know, it's black Nick Fury, and it's and it's very much been very ultimate in terms of the way that the characters have been structured, other than Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch not banging each other. But I think we were okay without that. Yeah, no, no, I think so too. Uh that's my point. Um, I'm just saying that that the ultimate universe that they actually had that.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:27

I don't know if you guys know that, but um just to sorry, just to correct you, uh much to my chagrin. Uh Ultimate Universe is 1610. Uh 1999999 is just the one that they designated earlier on um to be the MCU's universe. Are you sure? Yeah. I just googled it right now to be to be 100%. Oh, okay. Well, um, so that's why.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:50

Well, my point is that the Secret Wars movies are upcoming. Right. Right? And if this ends on sort of a note that could drive the story into Secret Wars, then then who knows, right? But yeah, cool. All right, well, listen. Uh anybody else got anything to add before we go.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:08

I want more McGill O'Hara in the next one. As like a character and not like as uh expositing the reason why Miles shouldn't exist and attacking him. You know what I mean? Like I want to delve deeper into him.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:18

Yeah, they they were even meta about the exposition, like they were making fun of themselves. They were like, uh Layla, throw up that uh information thing, you know, where we tell everybody about what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:29

Let's put the put the PowerPoint, throw up the PowerPoint. Yeah, yeah, basically. Basically. The multiverse that they showed in that is the same way that they present it in um uh Loki and and and all the other ones, the like branching paths, uh, the like tree, the blue tree.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:45

Yes, but then the spider webs were very different than what it looked like in Loki.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:49

And I think that's a hint to what Marvel and Sony are doing, where they're saying, you know, there is this Marvel multiverse, and maybe they'll sort of like cross over, but there's also the spider universe. Right. Uh, and then the that which is ours. Um you could read it as that.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:05

Yeah, but they don't respect Marvel enough to have a you know, to have a New York City with no heroes in it where crime just runs rampant.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:12

So they don't respect Spider-Man enough to give him a movie with venom that's good.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:16

Yeah, that's true. Oh, we saw that too. We saw Mrs. Chen. That was that was an interesting choice. A weird reference for that was. That was an interesting choice, but they wanted to reference. I'm just glad it was a Morbius. Well, dude, what they were doing is they were trying to reference their entire universe. Like they had scenes with Toby, they had scenes with Andrew, they had scenes with spectacular Spider-Man. I think you even had the Fox Spider-Man from the 90s. I'm not 100% sure, but I think I saw it.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:41

I didn't I didn't catch him, but I I was I I really wanted him to be there, and I'm gonna look for him.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:45

Yeah, and they had 60s Spider-Man, like they literally had every fucking Spider-Man you could possibly have.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:50

PS4 Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:51

Yeah, and uh and Avi R. Rad is back on this movie, by the way. I don't know if you guys noticed that, but he's one of the producers on it. Um, and Avi was one of the first guys on uh the Rami film, he was a producer on the Rami film, so anyways.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:04

And he ruined Spider-Man 3.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:06

There you go. There you go. Well, listen, guys, thank you so much for joining us for a review of Across the Spider-Verse. We hope you enjoyed it. Um be sure to check out our Twitter at meanwhile underscore pod, Instagram at mewell underscore pod. Leave us a rate and review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or Pod Chaser. And if you haven't had a chance, go back, check out our back catalog. We've got a ton of content for you guys. Definitely more Spider-Man. We did actually did a retrospective on Rainy. We did all three movies. It was a great conversation. Definitely check that out. We did the review for No Way Home, and we got tons of Marvel content after shows. We've got um, you know, deep dives into all kinds of different stuff. We've got Star Wars, we got DC. Uh, we'll definitely have a review for the flash up as soon as we get a chance to see it and uh record it. I don't know if we're gonna do Transformers. We haven't talked about it. Um, I need to take another look at the ratings and reviews. Apparently, they're not that great. Um, but apparently this one was shot very different, and that's what I've been saying about the Transformer movies for like ever is that Michael Bay gets the camera way too close. You can't tell who's fighting who, you can't tell who punched who, you can't tell who kicked who, and it just looks stupid and it's very boring. But apparently, this one is shot way different, and uh the results were far better as far as the action sequences. But apparently, this movie has no heart, it's kind of empty on story, so I don't know what direction we're gonna go for that. But um, but I'm it but I'm excited to see the flash. I've been hearing good things, I've been hearing mixed things. Uh, I don't know about you guys, but The Flash is not even the movie.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:41

The flash, the whole like the lead up to the movie has been a roller coaster.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:45

Yeah, no, for sure. Okay, well, listen, we're gonna sign off here. Thank you guys so much for joining us. I'm Frank McGuire.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:51

I'm Subamir.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:51

I'm Ryan Dietrich.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:52

Peace. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you feel so inclined, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Podchaser, Stitcher, or Spotify. And as much as we appreciate the reviews, the best way to support the show is to tell your friends and family about Meanwhile back on the podcast. Hashtag spread the nerd. To stay up to date on all things meanwhile, head over to solo.to forward slash meanwhile pod. There you can sign up for our newsletter, follow us on all your favorite social media platforms, and find the newest and latest episodes, contests, and giveaways.