Court Of Lore
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Court Of Lore
Superman | Happy 4th Bday, Snydercut! | Batman & The No K1ll Rule | The Most Lethal Justice Leaguer Is The Most Nerfed Justice Leaguer (Ep. 154)
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In this episode, the hosts dive deep into the upcoming Superman film helmed by James Gunn, unpacking everything from tone and character dynamics to production design. They voice concerns about the film leaning too heavily into comedy and debate how Superman should be portrayed in a post-Snyder DC Universe. The conversation shifts into a broader exploration of character complexity, spotlighting Zack Snyder’s take on Superman, the infamous no-kill rule, and the moral grey areas DC heroes often navigate. They also examine how storytelling choices—like The Flash’s power set or a darker character arc—can reshape both development and audience perception, making this a thoughtful and layered discussion on the future of the DCU.
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There's a belt attached to those trunks. The belt and the trunks are completely non-functional. It's like a rear spoiler on behind the civet. Like there's no functionality to it at all.
SPEAKER_05That man is prepared for everything. Are you telling me that he's not prepared to have a place, a prison to keep these people? I have to be able to picture it underneath clothes. Right? Because I like the, you know, the ripping of the shirt, you know, like that.
SPEAKER_01That's a great point. That's a great point. You cannot put the suit underneath anything. What's going on, folks? This is the second episode we're recording tonight. I'm gonna guess off to a good start here. The feedback that I've been seeing about Superman through some of the scoopers that have got some insights from some of the people that have seen the screeners or have seen or have been on in on the screenings for Superman has been interesting. Um and the word shtick was used in the description. It wasn't that it was like it was a sticky movie, but the person was trying to make the point that James Gunn's Superman is going to feel very much like Guardians of the Galaxy 3, where the humor was used sparingly and it wasn't kind of like overdone. The other thing that they said too that Davenqu David Corinsweat was a great Superman, that he nailed the role. Um but I don't think I want a comedic. I don't think I want a comedic Superman movie, and I and I'll tell you why. The dog already has dialed down the seriousness of it. The suit has already dialed down the serious of it, seriousness of seriousness of it. Um actually let's not let's not say seriousness, let's say sincerity, the sincerity and character accuracy. It's already kind of dialed that down for me a bit. The other thing is Guy Gardner, like the vibe that he's giving off already is just goofy and you know, totally a caricature. He's gonna be a caricature. That's what I'm kind of pitching, picturing with Guy Gardner. And Nathan Fillion is really is a really good actor, and I know he'll be able to nail it, but I feel like it's gonna be a caricature, and it's also an ensemble movie, you know, to you know, to a certain degree. Now, Gunn has already said that this movie is gonna be very much a Superman movie. There's three main characters, Lois Lane, Superman, and Lex Luthor. Those are the three main characters of the film. Everybody else is basically supporting Cass. But I don't get the sense that that's going to be the case. And the other thing that's throwing alarm bells up for me is I've been going back and watching the trailers. There's not a single word of dialogue other than what he says to crypto in the entire trailer. And I'm wondering, is James Gunn hiding the fact that he that the dialogue that he has in this movie is out of character for Superman? Is he trying to mitigate any fallout from that? Because if you go back and look at other trailers he's done, Suicide Squad, Guardians of the Galaxy, All the Guardians, lots of dialogue in the trailers. Because he likes character-driven movies, so you need the dialogue. I don't know. Thoughts?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think uh lately a lot of movies aren't having a lot of dialogue in their first teaser trailer. Um, but I do see your point a lot because it does seem like it's almost cartoony, uh, the the the vibe that it's getting. Which there's some good Superman cartoons, like My Adventures of Superman is pretty fantastic. But um definitely see the worry there, and there especially with Guy Gardner, okay. I mean, like nobody likes Guy Gardner, he's the most hated Green Lantern that there is. So, I mean, it you're right. He's a 100% character of just a punchable face, and that's all Nathan Fillion needs to do, and and it's gonna take away from Superman.
SPEAKER_00I think I think the key word here is teaser, um, because this is a teaser trailer. It's to get interest peaked and the look of Superman um and the feel, I think, of the movie. Uh so and it's doing what it's it's doing what it's supposed to do. It's getting people talking about it, right? I think the worst thing you can happen is have a teaser trailer drop and just be like, eh, you know, and just nobody talking about it. Uh the the opposite of love is isn't hate, it's indifference. So at least people are are talking about it in one sense or another. And the the final trailer, whenever that drops, obviously is gonna give us a little bit more uh into what Gun Superman is gonna look like um and sound like. As far as it being an ensemble piece, I you know, it's it's a Superman movie. Uh, I don't know. I mean, it could be that these are just gonna be bit parts, right? That this these are just gonna be bit parts that will expand as DCU expands. Um but as long as the focus is on, you know, Superman, Lois Lane, you know, and that and that aspect, the Daily Planet of it all, and uh, and and these other players come in for the action scenes, right? And uh, you know, you get Green Lantern Hawkwoman, Mr. Terrific, um, then then I'm gonna be okay with it. But if if it if we're starting off Superman as as a ensemble movie to begin with, then that does have me a little bit worried. I want to know more about this version of Superman uh and and how he relates to the wider world. And you know, we'll see. I'm always down for Nathan Fillion. Uh I've I've told you guys before, I'm a huge Nathan Fillion fan. He could lead a Guy Gardner movie for sure. And it would be the greatest, like, you want to talk about Stick. That would be the greatest slapstick shtick comedy um ever. Like they're they're having this lantern show that's gonna be like true detective. I don't think Guy Gardner's gonna make an appearance in that one. He just doesn't fit that aesthetic, obviously. Um, but having like Guy Gardner and like Booster Gold and Blue Beetle all in the same movie, I mean, sign me up. I'm there for it. How he'll fit in the Superman movie, he could be the comedic relief to you know the straight man of Superman, right? He everybody needs that comedic partner. And I don't see Mr. Terrific being that. I definitely don't see Hawkwomen being that. So Guy Gardner's gonna be gonna be the I don't know, maybe the voice of the everyman, because he kind of portrays that in the comics a little bit. Like he's a a more down-to-earth grounded Green Lantern versus the idealistic idealistic nature of like Hal Jordan or Kyle Rayner. So I don't know. We'll see.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Well, the full quote, I'll I'll read the full quote. Meanwhile, I spoke to someone this weekend who has seen Superman and they really liked it. They said David Cornswite delivers as the man of steel, and that the jokey moments I mentioned on my podcast, The Hot Mic, were initially viewed out of context, but work much better within the flow of the edit. They compared it to how Gunn balanced the humor and the drama in the Suicide Squad, saying it has genuinely funny moments, but it also knows when to drop the shtick and get serious. The current runtime is roughly 140 minutes. Now, I think okay, so for me, when it comes to Superman, I think tone is everything. Like tone in a Superman project is 100% everything. And if you want to be witty and clever with Superman, like the way that Mario Puzo was, the way that he wrote Superman, um, you know, for uh for Donner, then sure, I'm okay with that. That makes sense to me. A witty or clever, clever remark uh makes sense to me. But if it's gonna get into like the Guardians of the Galaxy style humor, I don't see that translating very well. And I think that there's a high potential that this is going to turn a lot of people off, despite the glowing response to Corinne Sweat's performance. And it just and then you know, with the fact that there's been no dialogue in the teasers or the trailers or anything, where it's just shots and shots with music over it, makes me highly suspicious that maybe they missed the mark on the dialogue, and Gunn kind of knows it, and he's just trying to mitigate the fallout.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. You can't I don't think he wants to show all his cards all at once. Like, how many versions of a trailer come out before the movie's release? I mean, I on YouTube I always see an like for um Captain America Brave New World, I think I might have seen like five or six different trailers leading up to the release date. So again, it's a teaser trailer, and they are it's they're all action shots. It's it's all of us to look at it and say, ooh, ah. Uh you'll get dialogue in the future, in the future trailers. And and plus, I think it's not done yet. It's still in production, right? So there's a lot of editing still to be done and um a lot of finishing things. It's gonna get focus grouped to death, obviously. Um, so we want to see what lands with the focus group. But what they did have in the can were these really cool action shots, uh, which I thought looked neat. Um whiz bang, you know. But I have a lot of faith in Gun. Um, if it weren't Gun, I would be a little bit worried, but he's garnered a lot of good faith in me through his time with Marvel. Um I've been a fan of Gun since his trauma days, right? So um I I like him a lot. A lesser director uh would have me worried, but I I feel like he really loves the character of Superman. He ri he's he's a nerd. He's he's one of us, right? One of us. So he's gonna have, I think, the heart of Superman in his best interest. He he's not gonna he doesn't actively hate the character. Like I've seen what was there was a movie I can't remember what it was, that where they actively hated like comic books. And you can tell in the making of the movie, like they just completely changed whatever it was. I can't remember off the top of my head, I'm so bad. But this is not that case. He he loves Superman, he loves comic books. Um, so I I have a lot of faith in him. He's gonna have to do a lot for me to really go to to just kind of write it off. Um, I mean, this is gonna have to fall completely on its face uh for me to say, you know what, I don't think the DCU has much of a shot. So I'm I'm I'm reserving judgment until the movie comes out, and then and that's the only way really we can fully judge something.
SPEAKER_01Okay, fair. No, fair. Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_05And I think that Superman is such an important property because this is gonna set the tone for what the DCU is. Uh, and he's not going for setting the tone with Batman, which I think would be the smarter move because I think more people relate to Batman now than they do Superman. And I don't think we're gonna get a casting announcement for Batman until after Superman come after Superman is released. Maybe, you know. Um, but Superman e all of DC is is all in. I mean, that's even the DC theme right now for all their comic books. I mean, is all in. And right now, they are all in on Superman. I mean, they're calling this summer the summer of Superman. They got so much stuff coming out. They've already started production on Supergirl, which I am more excited for Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow than I am for Superman. So am I. Man, that that that that book is just fantastic. But yeah, I mean, I I don't want a tongue-in-cheek Superman. I want a Superman that every time he's on, when he's Superman, not Clark Kent, when he's Superman, that you hope things are gonna be better. You hope that that he's just gonna stand there and be like, you know, with his arms out and Superman pose, you know. Um, you know, give the give us that Christopher Reevesque, you know, with a David Corn sweat twist, you know, like you merging of the two, and it just give me hope that this is gonna be a good movie.
SPEAKER_00Wouldn't it be wild if they cast um wouldn't it be wild if they cast uh Henry Cavill as um Jonathan Kent? Jorel? No, Jonathan Kent.
SPEAKER_01Oh, we already know who got cast as Jonathan Kent.
SPEAKER_00It's um I missed that one.
SPEAKER_01It's uh oh I can't remember the guy's name, but he was in The Walking Dead. He was uh he was the he he he played Otis um in The Walking Dead.
SPEAKER_05Otis from The Walking Dead is is Jor, is it Jorel?
SPEAKER_01No, no, no, not Jorel. No, Jonathan Kent. Jonathan Kent.
SPEAKER_05Oh, oh, the dad. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the dad. Yeah, yeah, he's uh he's I'll I'll tell you his name in five seconds here.
SPEAKER_00I just keep waiting for some sort of Henry Cavill stud casting somewhere.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't yeah, with what happened with Cavill's casting or you know, his announcement that he was coming back as Superman and totally getting his legs cut out from under him and being told no you're not uh I don't I don't I don't see him being too favorable towards towards DC right now, but that's just me. Uh also uh shit Millie Millie Alcock is on the uh the cast for Superman.
SPEAKER_05Oh absolutely. There's gonna lead there there'll be a scene.
SPEAKER_01Looks like it. Pruitt Taylor Events is playing Jonathan Kent. That is Otis from That's Otis from uh Walking Dead.
SPEAKER_05I love I don't want to get take go take go down too far in the deep end, but the absolute Superman um comic books, they uh so the Kents are actually the L's. The L's make it to Earth with Clark and take over the identities of the Kents. And oh he has his parents all through his life and then they die, you know, they die of old age, whatever, whatever, whatever. But uh there's a lot more that goes into it. I don't want to spoil anything for it, but I I think that that is such a a really cool twist on that, and I like it.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. That sounds really interesting. I actually want to read that now. That sounds really fascinating. I definitely want to check that out. How do you guys feel about the suit? We've never really talked about that on air. How do you guys feel about the suit? Let me look at it. I'm not a fan. Um I look at the suit as being um, I don't know, it looks like they rushed it. I think what happened was during this, like, you know, they're in, you know, they're in a certain stage of production when the strike hits, the strike ends, they gotta catch up, and I think what happened was the suit got rushed, and it looks like it got rushed, in my opinion. Um, I'm not a fan of trunks. I think trunks are the worst way to go with any superhero costume. I just think that they look stupid to have your you know, your underwear on the other outside of your pants just looks kind of dumb. And there's a belt attached to those trunks. So the belt and the trunks are completely non-functional. So it's like it's like a rear spoiler on a Honda Civic. Like there's no functionality to it at all. So I'm not a fan of the suit. Also, it's really thick. Like, if you actually get like a good shot of the way that it fits around Corn Sweat's wrist, you can see the thickness of the actual material, like almost kind of like the edge of it. You can see how thick the edge of that cuff is, and it just does not look it doesn't look comfortable, it doesn't look good. Um and it and it pales in comparison to the Michael Wilkinson uh Superman suit from Man of Steel and from BBS and all the other versions of that suit. Um and there's no story to it, like it, it's it's it's not a character in the way that the Man of Steel suit was in Man of Steel. Like that suit had actual Kryptonian glyphs carved into the material. Like there's actual like writing carved into that suit. There's nothing like that in this suit. It just looks I don't know. There's just no appeal for it for me. And honestly, I gotta like the suit to like to like the characterization. Like it just doesn't feel it just doesn't feel right to me. Rich, thoughts?
SPEAKER_00I like the angular S. I feel like that was in a comic book run. Brad, you you may have to refresh me on that one. Uh, but I I feel like I've seen it somewhere. But I I like the Angular S. Um, I think it looks sharp. I think Gunn was going for kind of um classic modern look. I think he was paying homage to the underwear on the outside look uh while also giving us a modern take with the with that S shield. Um I I do agree I like Cavill's suit better. Um I like Tyler Hotchland's suit better in in um Superman and Lois. Um we'll see how it looks on screen. I mean, I'm looking at a bunch of behind-the-scenes photos, and and any suit looks bad in behind-the-scenes photos. Um so Cavill's didn't. Yeah, yeah. I mean, but Cavill, you know, filled it out. He's Cavill.
SPEAKER_01I mean so I mean Yeah, but yeah, but Cor, yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but Corinne Sweat worked his ass off to get into shape for this movie, and you can't even tell that he's like did anything. Like the suit totally mutes any there's no definition definition in his body, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, uh I we'll see how it looks on screen, uh, but I I have seen better suits. Um I'm not I'm not really a fan of the underwear on the outside anymore either. I kind of like the unicolor um suit. Uh so yeah, it's kind of right. The S looks cool though.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Brad, what are your thoughts? Um, I'm agreeing in agreement with both of you guys, actually. I I love the logo. I like the Superman logo, but like when I when I think of a Superman suit, I have to be able to picture it underneath clothes, right? Because I like the you know, the ripping of the shirt, you know, like that.
SPEAKER_01That's a great point. That's a great point. You cannot put the suit underneath anything.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. It would be bulging all over the place. And it's got a collar, you know. I mean, and it just uh again, no trunks, but yeah, it just it doesn't it doesn't scream good Superman to me. It seems my Superman suit needs to either be a Kryptonian suit that he was sent over to Earth and they were planning for this, you know, or it needs to be made by Ma Kent. It needs to have that homemade feel to it because he's he's a Kansas farm boy, you know. I mean, like, and that it doesn't, I mean, even in Kansas, they're like, don't put your underwear over your pants.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, it it it it doesn't look right to me, it doesn't feel right. And ever since we saw, you know, new 52, that style of Superman, and Zack Snyder went forward with a trunkless look, it works, it looks amazing. You know, you give them that little sort of ornate belt, like in the like just like in the MOS suit, and it looks fucking awesome.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So, and why would you have a belt on a pair of trunks? Like it doesn't, it it it just looks fucking stupid. He doesn't want to lose his trunks flying at sonic speed. I mean, what come on, right? I don't think so. Makes complete sense to me. So that's a lot of things. But the trunks are stitched, but the trunk, but the trunks are stitched into the soup. That's that's the other thing. It doesn't really make a ton of sense. So the other thing that a lot like very few people have been talking about, I don't know if you guys heard this, but apparently all the extras are stylized in almost the exact same way, like their clothing. It's like a very retro, neo-retro type of look. And apparently it's homogenous across the entire city. So that feels very cartoonish to me because I don't know, I don't know what city you would go to where everybody dresses the same, other than like the Middle East. Metropolis. You know? Yeah, no, they want you to believe it's metropolis, but I don't think that that's a realistic expectation that everybody would be kind of dressed in the same color palettes and and textures and and all that shit. That just doesn't really track for me. I don't know. It seems weird. Like it seems like a really weird thing to do in your production design to get everybody to kind of have the same style and look. I don't know. What are you guys' thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_05I don't like it. Uh like I said, it's just like I don't want a cartoon of Superman. If I want to watch a cartoon of Superman, I'll turn on Super, you know, the Adventures of Superman or My Adventures of Superman, or or I'll watch Justice League Unlimited or something like that. I I don't need I I want a real, I want a real city. I don't need everybody to be, you know, styled the same. I don't want a cartoon.
SPEAKER_01Neither do I.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Which maybe to m maybe everybody in the background looks the same to make the heroes pop out more. Um Yeah, I mean if if if Gun is going like with the Superman suit going for a retro modern look, then the extras are gonna kind of fill out that same palette.
SPEAKER_03So yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, good point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if if if that is the case, that's a valid point to make. But it just, I don't know, it kind of seems it kind of seems kind of silly. Um so did you guys hear that it was um yesterday was the four-year anniversary for uh Snyder's Justice League? I didn't realize that. Same.
SPEAKER_00When did you when did you guys last watch that? Probably about that long ago. Really? Well, when the Snyder cut made it on Max, that was the last time I've watched anything on the Snyderverse. So that four-hour cut of of Justice League. So whenever that was. Have you only watched it once? Four hours once? Yeah, I'm not gonna watch it twice. I watched I watched the original in the theater, uh, the the James Wheaton cut. Uh, and then I watched Whedon cut, and then I watched the uh the Snyder cut when it dropped on Max both once. Uh there's no way I was watching four hours twice. Dude, but it was good. I like the Snyder cut.
SPEAKER_01Okay. That's a movie that you gotta watch a couple of times to be able to soak in all of it, like all the nuances and like the little, you know, the little the little grains of dialogue that are just amazing in that in that movie. You got yeah, you gotta watch that again, man. Like that, like the second viewing will definitely increase your and increase your joy for that one. I'm telling you right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, Darkseid looked great. I I kind of wish I saw him in the original. I so that's it's one of those things where the the fans called for the Snyder cut, and I think they were right. I mean, the Snyder cut I felt was much better than the Wheeden cut. Um I get why the Wheeden cut had to be made uh the the way it was. I think they were trying to be like Marvel uh and and kind of be that witty thing, and and and Wheedon just got done filming Age of Ultron around that time.
SPEAKER_01So he was a perfect basically stole some scenes from it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he was a perfect league, perfect fit for that aesthetic. But the Snyder, I like the Snyder cut. I mean, I I thought it was really, really good. And and I think he definitely had a vision of making DC the uh opposite of Marvel to be a little darker, a little grittier, a little more um uh anti-hero kind of thing. Uh, I think the only true real hero was um like Wonder Woman was was really kind of the straight-laced kind of hero, but she had some Superman had had some flaws, obviously Batman. Um, and and then Cyborg's story was just completely heartbreaking uh watching it with Snyder cut. So I thought it was really, really good. And then Aquaman just, you know, he's just there to look cool because he's cool, because Jason Momoa looked cool. But um, yeah, so you know, Snyder, Zach Snyder, may it's another one of those unfairly maligned. He had he definitely had a he had a deck, he definitely had a vision, and I was in it. I was I was all in on it. Uh I I would like to have seen how he would have rode that out. Um, so who knows? Who what could have been? Coulda, woulda, shoulda.
SPEAKER_01Okay, let's let's ask Brad. Brad, how did you feel about Snyder Cut?
SPEAKER_05Dude, I love it. I watch it every year. Every summer I watch the Snyder Cut, man. I'm like, I'm more of a DC than I am a Marvel guy, so like uh um I I I watch Batman versus Superman every year, too. I mean, like I watch Mary.
SPEAKER_01I love BBS. Yeah, I love the ultimate edition of BBS. Like, that is a fucking awesome film.
SPEAKER_05It's a good movie. It is costly. I I I will stand on that hill. I will die on that hill.
SPEAKER_01Me too, brother.
SPEAKER_05Good movies. And are you know, are there uh is there great parts? Yes. Are there not so great parts? Yes. You're gonna get that in every freaking movie that's made, you know. And um I I'm sadden that we won't get the Snyderverse anymore. Maybe who knows in the future what the future holds, maybe we'll get an animated version of something or other. You know, maybe we'll come back and do Crisis on Infinite Earth and we'll have Corn Sweat meets, you know, Cavill or or whatever, you know. I mean, I doubt it, but you know, it's if they're going for the multiverse, which apparently that's the thing right now, I don't know. Um but yeah, man, I Snyder is pissed off, and he moved on to Rebel Moon, and you know, which I think we'll probably talk about a little bit as well. But yeah, yeah, man, it's great. I watch it every year, all six hours. Four hours. Four hours or four hours, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wasn't there wasn't there a Justice League six hour cut? Wasn't there another cut Justice League Gray or something or black and white?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but it's just black and white. Yeah, it's not longer.
SPEAKER_00Was it the Snyder cut in black and white? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Probably why I didn't watch that one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was it was the more artistic one that Zach wanted to do.
SPEAKER_00Justice League Noir.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, Justice League Noir. That's exactly what it is. Um, yeah, so the Snyder Cut. I was I was one of those people where as soon as I started hearing about that this could actually be a possibility, I was 100% on board with it. I was a believer. I thought that it was crazy that there was people that felt that it was that they had that they felt the need to like deny it, like to come out and deny it and say it didn't exist and it would never happen. Like, I don't know what motivates people like that. I kind of feel like it's from a very dark place in a lot of people. It's just weird because if somebody came to me and told me like, hey, there's another there's another version of Civil War where um Iron Man kills Cap or Cap kills Iron Man, I wouldn't be like, oh, it doesn't exist and I'll never see it. I'll be like, okay, how do I how do I see this film? Like, I don't know what the resistance is in DC to Zack Snyder. Well, actually, I kind of do know what it is. In my and you know what, I want to get your guys' thoughts on this too, because I think this is an important conversation to have. I think the initial reaction from the detractors and the DC fan base to Man of Steel and to BBS was the fact that they didn't get the cartoonish action figure that they've always thought Superman was. Like, yeah, if you read, if you read Superman comics religiously, you get to see a lot of his nuances and a lot of his, you know, a lot of his did it different, you know, different aspects of his personality and the different dimensions of who he is. But if you're just somebody who's a casual watcher and you're just a casual Superman fan because it's Superman, or you're a casual Batman fan because it's Batman, there's a lot of people like that, or just like, oh, it's Superman and Batman, hell yeah, I'll watch that. Or it's Spider-Man, hell yeah, I'll watch that. Right? But there's a lot of people that just don't understand the the dimensions of this character. And I feel like and I feel like what Zach did was he found the human before he found the alien demigod. Like that's what he was going for. Man of Steel isn't a film about Superman, it's a film about Clark Kent. It's a film about Cal L. It's a film about him being in an impossible position and being called to stand up and save the earth. Like he wasn't like, I don't think he had any designs on, hey, I'm gonna be the superhero when I grow up and I'm gonna save people. He was just kind of thrust into it because of where he comes from. And every time I hear complaints about the characterization of Superman through the eyes of Zack Snyder or David Goyer, who wrote Man of Steel and Chris Terrier, who wrote BBS, I always say, like, you're missing the point. Like you're missing the point. Like it wasn't about like there was still optimism there, there was still hope. It just wasn't this lunchbox version or this backpack version or this cartoonish version of it. It was a human version of it. Like they did everything they could to humanize this character. And they rooted it in a very powerful story about immigration, and a very powerful story about identity, and a very powerful powerful story about trying to find your place in the world. Um and yeah, I I just it's weird a lot of the the pushback against Zach and what he does for comic book movies and what he does for DC. Um but yeah, do you guys get like do you guys get what I'm saying? Like as far as like Man of Steel and the humanization of it and and all that, like do you guys agree or yeah, yeah, absolutely I agree.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean Zack Snyder played Superman as a as a tortured soul, I think, in Man of Steel. Um, especially by the time we get to him, you know, snapping necks at the end. And I think that's where a lot of people, the casual fans, as you were saying, um, I think were kind of aghast, right? Not my Superman, my Superman would not be snapping necks uh in in the comics, or he's he would never kill people like that. He would find a way to not, I mean, if Batman doesn't kill people, why is Superman killing people? So I I think there was a lot of backlash to that. And and I think with um Batman v Superman, you know, the whole Martha thing I think turned a lot of people off. Uh like that that whole battle stopped because their moms had the same first names. Um, you you hear a lot of thought pieces behind that. Uh, but I think deep, deep down, and no movie's perfect, right? So, but deep down, I think Snyder had a vision. Um, and I liked it. Uh, I didn't mind the next snapping. Uh, you know, in in the context of that fight, what choice did he have? Um, because Metropolis was coming down skyscraper by skyscraper, and and what are you gonna do? I mean, he had to do it. So I, you know, I I didn't I didn't mind it. Um, and and I think, like I said, unfairly maligned. I I think you're looking at a couple of things in a snapshot and not looking at the wider vision of where Zack Snyder wanted to take the DCU. And uh, yeah, we'll never know. I I would have loved to have seen a cyborg movie um to to get more of his origin story that you know we saw glimpses of in the Snyder cut. Um just heartbreaking, the way his dad had to, you know, fix him the way he did, and and he didn't want to be that. Um, but yeah, so that's that was his vision. I think I think what Frank, you're so nervous about gun is is maybe it's the pendulum swinging in the other direction now. Uh, you know, we we don't how do you separate yourself from the Snyder universe being grimdark? You make it bright and happy. Uh so it's it's just that pendulum swing. Um, and and we'll see where it lands.
SPEAKER_01That's a mischaracterization. The Snyder verse is not grim and dark. It's it's it's it's hyper-realistic. Like there's a there's a sense of hyper-realism in Snyder's work that just isn't in any other comic book movies. Like, if Superman was a real person, if Superman was an actual entity on our planet, it would be Neil deGrasse Tyson who would jump on TV and try and explain to you what it meant in the grander scheme of things. And that's exactly what happened in BBS. Neil deGrasse Tyson gets on a news show and is like, hey, this is what this means for us as humanity. And that's exactly how it would play out. If a demigod came to Earth right now and said, I'm from a foreign, like, you know, I'm from an alien planet and I have all these amazing powers, it would be fucking Neil deGrasse Tyson on C E CNN, the first guy trying to explain it to us. That's what I'm saying. Zach has a certain level of reverence for the source material where he embraces them as mythology. He doesn't embrace them as cartoons. He embraces he embraces these characters as mythological figures, right? And he did the same thing with Batman, as human as Batman is, he also tried to do the same thing with him. Like he definitely went to the wall to try and humanize him as much as he possibly could. I don't see it as grim and dark. And I think that people want to use those words because of Zach's color palette, and I get that. Like, yeah, Zach doesn't use high saturation. Zach does not use um, you know, overly exposed shots. Like his shots are underexposed, he uses a lot of desaturation, and he kind of has his own sort of color palette. But I don't necessarily think that that means it's grim and dark. I think that means that it's just a stylistic choice. The content itself, the content itself, I think relatively to Marvel or relatively to certain DC comics or DC cartoons or whatever, is a little dark for sure. Because yeah, Zach does not buy into the no-kill rule. I don't buy into the no-kill rule. I think the no-kill rule is the most juvenile thing on the planet. I think it's it's it's cartoonish, it's juvenile, and it it it infantilizes the audience. Because at the end of the day, the end of the day, if Batman, if Batman, like first of all, and this is a lot of things, and and this is something that people gloss over all the time. Batman killed people in the Michael Keaton movies. There's a couple bodies that go down in the Michael Keaton movies. There's also a couple bodies that go down in the Christian Bale movies. So Zack Snyder is in the first one to use Batman to kill some people. Everybody's used Batman to kill some people. It just happens, right? But if you look at it through the context of just the character and just the world that he ex just the world that he ex just the world that he exists in, it makes total sense for him to get to a point where he might have to take somebody's life. Because if you think about it, if you think about it, look at the Joker, right? Look at the Joker. The argument can be made that Batman has beaten that man within an inch of his life so many times that he has only increased his psychopathy and his homicid and his homicidal tendencies because of the actual beatdowns that he gets from Batman. Because CTE, right? Head injuries. Like Hernandez, the the the the the the the tight end for um the tight end for the Patriots. That guy killed people because of head injuries, right? So it's actually proven now that CTE can cause homicidal rage in people who have CTE. So the argument can be made that Batman's actually making things worse by not killing the Joker. And I think that we need to get to a place where sometimes people are gonna die. Like that's just what's gonna happen. That's how we move on, you know? And I think it's really childish to try and just end a story where this character keeps coming back and keeps coming back and keeps coming back, no matter what they do. That's why I like the Injustice. Like, I really like the Injustice comics a lot. Like when Superman, when Superman punches a hole through the Joker for what he did, that tracked for me. Because what he did was goddamn horrendous. Not only did he kill Lois Lane, but he used Superman to kill Lois Lane using Scarecrow's fear fear toxin. That's a crazy, crazy plot. Like that's a crazy idea to put in a story. So the Joker had to die, and he had to die like that. How do you guys feel about the no-kill rule? I know it's a very contentious thing, but yeah, man.
SPEAKER_05First of all, Tom Taylor's injustice comic run is some of the best DC has ever done, ever, period. You know, there's no It's great. Yeah, it's it's great. Uh the no-kill rule, I agree, is stupid. And because there's always going to be collateral damage in everything that these guys do. The same point, the way Superman ended up killing the Joker. I mean, it's you know, it can Batman be blamed because he's the one always fighting the Joker for the people that the Joker kills because he escapes from Arkham or whatever, however, he gets free. You know, I mean, if if bat how many how many lives would Batman have saved if he killed the Joker after the second meeting? Or, you know, same with all of his rogue gallers. I mean, it's plot devices, obviously, but but yeah, man, I mean, like there's gonna be collateral damage, and they have to know that. I mean, if you're if these guys are running around in capes and their underwear on their on the wrong side of their pants and stuff like that, you know, yeah, people are gonna die.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Rich, yeah. I mean, I I don't think you can blame Batman not killing Joker. I think you blame the lack of security and questionable staffing practices of Arkham Asylum, right?
SPEAKER_05But you would think that Wayne Enterprises would have gone into Arkham and donated, you know, the RD to make it almost like a supermax, right?
SPEAKER_00Look, this is the tenth time he's escaped. I'm coming in and I'm fixing your security so he doesn't get out. Like, what's the deal?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. But uh you have a wing for Mr. Freeze and you have a wing for poison ivy. I mean, like Batman is prepared for everything. Are you telling me that he's not prepared to have a place, a prison to keep these people?
SPEAKER_00That's right. Uh, but I digress. I digress. I think here here's how I feel about the no-kill rule. The reason why the injustice comic run is so good, and based on a video game, on top of that, I mean, I've seen some comic book adaptations of video games that are like awful. It's like movie adaptations of video games are awful. Um, but the reason why the Injustice League, or the Injustice League, the Injustice Comic Run works so well is because Superman doesn't kill. And when he does kill, this happens, right? If if all of our heroes killed, we get we get the boys. Um, and and you get Homelander and you get all of that, right? And then you can't tell the hero, you can't tell the difference between the heroes and the villains. So it it's the the no-kill rule is what separates uh on a higher level, what separates the good guys from the bad guys, and and but but that's a platitude, Rich.
SPEAKER_01Like saying saying that immediately after somebody kills somebody, they they they automatically go to the dark side is kind of like the best way to to armor the argument that there needs to be a no-kill kill rule, right? Like to to to give it credence. There, that's the best way to do it. But at the end of the day, man, like you know, yes, killing somebody is going to definitely change you. Is it gonna turn you into Homelander? Depending on who you are and how you and you know how you justified killing that person and why you killed that person, like I just think it's a little bit more nuanced than just like, hey, this guy killed somebody, now he has to break bat. I I just don't think it's that easy, you know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the first the first kills the first kill's the hardest. Each one after that gets a little easier. Not that I've done that, I'm just saying, like if any true crime documentary has taught me anything, is that the first kill of the serial killer is the hardest, and then he gets better at it and has less of an affinity of of not doing it. So if if Superman and Batman killed on the regular, then Injustice wouldn't be good. It would just be a Tuesday. And and that's why stories like Injustice are so good. That's why the the Batman Who Laughs is so good, um, is is because of those that dichotomy. So I'm not saying it, I'm not saying that heroes are indiscriminately killing, kill for kill for a purpose, but if it's if it's a little too regular, then what's the what's the what's the point? Like there's where's the story go? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so let me ask you, how do you respond to somebody when they say that killing is out of character for Superman and for Batman? How do you respond to that?
SPEAKER_00In the traditional sense of the comics, yeah, it is out of it is out of character. Um, because because I mean they they canonically blatantly say, you know, the no-kill rule, right? In in not so many words.
SPEAKER_01Isn't that contrived though? But isn't that completely contrived to make it that way to uphold it? Like, think about it this way, right? Superman is a demigod, right? And when he punches somebody realistically, his fist should be passing through everybody's face as he's punching them. Like that that's the realism of it, right? Like every time Superman punches somebody, their their heads should just be missed at that point. Because I don't think that he knows how to control his strength to a point where he can actually inflict damage on somebody, especially in a very kinetic fight. Like to a point where they're not gonna take his life that you know, to a point where he can avoid taking somebody's life. Because there's also other factors involved. Superman's opponents, one may be more physically resilient than the other. That's also something that would come into play, whether what kind of damage Superman can do. So what I'm saying is that the kill rule is actually a contrivance that's created by the writers to create this false sense of of of um I don't I don't know what word I would use, but yeah, like this false sense that they want the characters to have for the fans, like to you know yeah, this sort of great like yeah, I don't know, but that's that's kind of how I see that. You don't see it that way.
SPEAKER_00I mean it's it's every every like comic book I read, every movie about a comic book is like if if we kill we're no better than the people we're fighting against, right? That's the high level.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know, but that's but that's the writer that that's the writer upholding that law.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but you can't have Superman killing people on the regular. Like I mean, he could kill people with a wet willy. I mean he it's he's so overpowered. He's hold he could kill anybody he wants, but he doesn't. I mean, he's the big blue boy scout. So that's that's kind of his that's kind of his thing. He's truth, justice, and the American way, so to speak. So it's it's his character not to kill people. That's why Zack Snyder's was such a shock that he didn't find another way to to to take care of Zod other than snapping his neck. Um, and that's from some of the mainstream things that I read, is that's where a lot of people kind of drew the line on Zack Snyder's Superman was, you know, the just killing folks. I understood it. I mean, I I get why he had to do it uh at that moment in time in context. Uh but yeah, I mean, he's not killing anybody in Batman v Superman, he's not killing anybody in Justice League. So it's it wasn't uh a thing that he did on the regular. So when I say I guess the no-kill rule, I'm like, if he's gonna kill somebody, it's gotta it's gotta matter. And it's not just because, you know, it just has to matter. That's again, that's why injustice was so good. It mattered, and it drove the whole story.
SPEAKER_03And if you didn't have the no-kill rule, then it wouldn't have mattered.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I guess it's a you know, I guess it's a double-edged sword. Um do you think that okay, but if but as far as my point as far as it being a little more on the childish and more infantilizing side of the coin, do you agree with that or no?
SPEAKER_00I mean, no, I think I I think these heroes are an idealized version of ourselves. Like we don't want to think we would kill anybody, but you know, uh my I just had a a new granddaughter a month ago. And as I was holding her in my arms in the hospital with her little fingers wrapped around my my index finger, and I'm staring into her eyes, I thought, I will kill for you, right? Because I love that that baby so much. So we we want to think that Superman is the idealized version of ourselves, right? And Batman is the idealized version of ourselves. And we want to think that no matter what, that we're not gonna kill anybody. But, you know, like I said earlier, anybody's capable of anything given the right circumstances and the appropriate triggers. And, you know, if somebody did something to my granddaughter, I I would I would snap next.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Let me ask you this would you kill Hitler?
SPEAKER_00Like go back in time as a baby.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if you could go back in time and kill Hitler, would you kill him?
SPEAKER_00Uh man, we want to talk about time travel paradoxes now. Like what other effects would have happened if if we killed Hitler of all the things that we would have done. Uh what would imagine what wouldn't have happened? What would not happen?
SPEAKER_01Imagine like the world imagine the world was just like even worse when we get to that point.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like that that'd be fucking crazy. If like the the the result of killing Hitler was like 10 times as bad as as Hitler was, like that would be the ultimate, like the universe telling you to go fuck yourself. It's just like, yeah. I mean Hitler as bad as he was.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean Hitler as bad as he was, filled a vacuum, right? And then it's it's kind of like you you remove that that that centralizing piece of everybody focused in on this one person, one ideology, where would it have all gone? You know, anarchy would rule, chaos would reign, and who knows?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I'd kill him. I'd kill him. I wouldn't be able to resist the impulse. I've always said that I've always said that if you have like if there was ever another war like that where it was literal like literal fascism, I'm not talking about Donald Trump, I'm not talking about Elon Musk, I don't think that's fascism at all. Um, that's that's what democracy is. That man was voted in. So, but if with some but if but if another Hitler showed up again, I would definitely join the front lines for that because I feel like that's something worth dying for. Yeah. Is like when you get to somebody like that, you know? Um, so I found an interesting post this week. I want to talk to you guys about it. So it was a photo of the Justice League, and it was like Justice League members and chances of soloing the Avengers, and it had percentages.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01So 95% Superman, 70% Batman, 93% Wonder Woman, 98% the Flash. This is why I respect this, because I want because I want to go into why the Flash is actually the most powerful character in the DC universe, and also the most nerfed character in the DC universe. 85% Hal Jordan, the Green Lantern, 90 90 uh Martian Manhunter, 60% Aquaman, by the way. Aquaman is super strength, so probably a little higher than that, I would say. Cyborg 80%, and uh Shazam 89%.
SPEAKER_00So what are these percentages again? One more time. These are the chances against the Avengers.
SPEAKER_01Solo the Avengers.
SPEAKER_05I disagree with Batman. I I think Batman's chance would be lower, but only unless he could prepare. I mean, you bring Captain Marvel.
SPEAKER_01If he doomed them, if he tower, if he tower of babbled them.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I guess so.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, if he yeah, if he came if he came up with deterrence for all of them, then yeah, it could get pretty crazy. Um some of the deterrence he had for his fellow Justice League members in Tower of Babel were fucking insane.
SPEAKER_05Diabolical.
SPEAKER_01Like oh yeah, so cool.
SPEAKER_05He was a villain, yeah. Right? Yeah. I mean, Flash, I 100% agree. I 100% agree that he's the most powerful.
SPEAKER_01He's he's the most powerful character in all of DC. And if he was a murderer, like reverse flash, he would be the most dangerous thing on the planet, like without a doubt. And I don't know why everybody just passes over this guy thinking, oh, he just runs fast. No, he can fucking literally phase into your body and just stab you in the heart with his hand whenever he fucking wants. He can also like lift you off the ground just by using his arms as like turbines, like he can literally dodge any attack, he can phase through any attack. So he's probably one of the most dangerous characters. And I and I think phasing is actually um a very under-respected power set because Martian Manhunter has it too, vision has it as well, and when you combine that with something else, I think you're fucked. Like, I literally think you're one of like if you're going up and against anybody who has another power set that can phase, that has not only can phase, but has another power set, whether it be super strength or some sort of kind of weapon, you're fucked. Like that person is fucked. I don't think that there's any way of getting out of that fight alive. Because phasing, if they can just do it at will, like in nanoseconds, then you're then you're screwed. I like I think you stand no chance at all.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, plus he can flash point you to another universe. So that's another thing. There's always that. And he can do the whole time travel to go back and kill Hitler.
SPEAKER_05There you go. Yeah, there you go. Yep, and and he can watch different what versions go to see which is good or which is bad. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01Rich, who do you think is the most powerful character in DC is? Batman with prep time. Batman, Batman with prep time. That's a superpower, it's prep time. Yeah, I know, but it's only because the writer wants it to be so. That's it. But I mean, prep time and a writer. That's Batman's superpowers. That's right. That's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I mean, if he had no prep time, I mean he'd he'd get kind of squashed like a bug, I would imagine, at some point. So uh yeah, but some of the fights he's won have been crazy.
SPEAKER_01Like he beat Dark Side. Yeah. He he he beat um uh he beat what's his face? Uh Savage. Um Vandal Savage, yeah. Yeah, he's beat Luther a couple times. Like he's he's beat some pretty fucking up there, up there dudes. He's smart for sure.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think his intellect is downplayed a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05He's one of the smartest people in the DC universe. I mean, I think Lex Luthor is ahead of him by just a little bit. I think Mr. Terrific is ahead of him a little bit. Um the qu uh the the uh the chimp, detective chimp is up there as well. Um I think Montoya, Renee Montoya is up there as well. I but yeah, he's one of the smartest people in DC.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think the longer the fight goes, the advantage goes to Batman. You gotta take out Batman quick. But the longer you keep him in the fight, the more he learns about you, the more he can come up with ways to counterattack you.
SPEAKER_01He's the best strategist for sure. He's the best tactician. Yeah, he's definitely the best tactician for sure. So you weren't saying much when me and Brad were kind of like singing the praises of Flash and kind of just laying out why he's the most dangerous character in the DC. You don't you don't subscribe to that?
SPEAKER_00No, I do. I mean, I I really don't have a whole lot more to say uh about Flash. I I really do think he's the strongest and and most lethal, he could be the most lethal character. I mean, the reverse flash shows what Flash could do if unhinged. I mean, it's it's a perfect mirror image of Flash. Um it's it's Flash without morals, it's Flash without uh any kind of of compass, true North Compass. It's it's Flash without Iris, Iris West, right? So Flash with his super speed, the phasing, the flash pointing people to the to another universe, just I mean, dodging attacks. He's he is, yeah. I mean, he's up there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I think if you want to spot the most powerful character in any given franchise, look at who the most nerfed character is. Like who are the writers, you know, dialing down just to make their books work or just make their stories work? Right? Like who are they who are they basically hobbling? Like who are they, you know, handicapping like in these fights, right? And Flash is definitely the guy that gets fucking handicapped because if they just let him go full full boar, like he wins every fight. Like he could just like the you know, with the flash, he wouldn't even need the Justice League. Could just be Flash. Like literally, like he could take out an entire group of enemies on his own, which is kind of nuts when you think about it. Like he could take like he could take on the entire Injustice League by himself, I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they got him, they have him as a support player. Like even in uh Justice League, he was like, What do I do? Man said, just run, just get people one by one and pull them out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, that's because he was inexperienced and he was scared and he had anxiety, and yeah, he like he was just kind of a mess, right? Yeah, but if we're talking about classic Barry Allen or classic Wally West, then yeah, so who's your Frank?
SPEAKER_05Who's your flash?
SPEAKER_01Um, I really like Wally West, but I also really like Barry Allen for many different reasons. I like Wally, I like Wally's personality, he's just more vibrant, he's just more uh there's more dimension to him, and he's just kind of more like he's he's the Spider-Man flash, like he's quippy and he's just kind of jokey, and and where Barry is more like just all heart, you know? Um, but I but I like both of them. I really like both of them a lot. Um, anyways, I think this about wraps it up. Yeah, so guys, thank you for listening. Uh we hope you enjoyed this episode. And uh, if you have any thoughts for us, hit us up on Twitter or any of our other social media profiles or speakpipe. Um and uh we'll see you guys for the next one. Until next time, I'm Frank McGuire.
SPEAKER_05I'm the Emperor of Awesome, Bradley B-10, and I'm Rich Rera.
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